It's Fascia-nating

[windwalker]

Because Chinese write something you should not stop being critical and refrain from analyze what is said.

the fascia expands (exhales) from the last movement of left clasping to exhale, to the swallowing of inhalation at the transition, as if the surrounding air is gathered into the fur as the fascia contracts. At this time, the body also changes shape quietly and without any trace as the fascia contracts.

Again, WHAT fascia??? Where??? The fascia covering the bones? Organs? Muscles? Or the fascia that connects muscles with the skin???

Fascia cannot contract or expand by itself, only as a consequences of the movements of the body, internally or externally.

For such an inconspicuous movement as "hugging the knees, walking, turning, hand, and waving the pipa", not only the right hand, left foot, and right foot move simultaneously, but the whole body is actually busy internally with this matter, but it looks so calm on the outside. .

Good quote. Just skip the all of the rest.

Maybe you should try to do what is said..
Agree with what was written, describes much of my own feelings on it..

You do read Chinese, why not tell them you don't agree or ask what they mean...
They have a blog you can ask questions directly...

My point for those who do this, its consistent, makes sense for those who can do it and have experienced it.
Obviously, you have not....

For those reading,,,presented in the interest of discussion showing different ideas put to use.
not to dissuade or convince others whose practices are different.

[windwalker]

'On the other hand, if you do not develop from the extension of fascia,

but directly rely on inertia to turn the joints (shoulders and elbows move first, waist turns first), you are compressing the joints and damaging them."

Who knew...

Highlighting different thoughts...

Teacher Wu Guozhong was one of Zheng Man Chings students who had a large following in Taiwan.
Met one of his earlier students while in Taiwan...
felt he was quite good, had an interesting conversation comparing notes.


'

[windwalker]

Again, WHAT fascia??? Where??? The fascia covering the bones? Organs? Muscles? Or the fascia that connects muscles with the skin???

Fascia cannot contract or expand by itself, only as a consequences of the movements of the body, internally or externally.

.

Wondering if you read the article...

[For a while] I stood up and moved around, and I liked to practice knocking down monkeys. It’s not that I like this style very much, but I feel that there are some aspects that I’m not satisfied with and I need to study it carefully. Let’s start with a few dissatisfactions:

While the body moves back, the upper hand beside the ear slides down and forward, and the lower hand in front swings back.

a. It is found that the correlation between the two hands is low, they seem to be doing their own things, and they are not two individuals related to each other.
b. The upper hand seems to be pushed forward more (the upper arm is pushed forward with the upper arm higher) and less extended. My body sensed a loose smell, as if the net was loose and the structure was a bit sluggish, preventing Qi from flowing out of my fingertips.

After practicing for ten minutes and resting for a while, I found that my knees were a little weird. I felt that if I practiced too much, it might cause soreness or pain. Obviously during the exercise just now, the knees swayed slightly.

I found that after the shift and when the hands were extended, the waist and hips were still a little faster, and the fascia of the two feet did not extend along with it, especially the ankles and Weizhong. The condition of waist and hip joints that are too fast and uneven up and down comes from the old habit of turning the waist and hips in the past.

So I tried to keep the appearance of my body from rotating when my hands were extended after the shift (my mind wanted to turn), and my head was kept in the center. I just let the fascia of my body expand as much as possible with my hands to avoid blurring everything in the waist and hips . "

Outlines what he feels he's doing in his practice, might answer some of your questions...

[wayne hansen]

The reason I object to the use of the word Facia in tai chi it is just Another rabbit hole for the easily duped to run down
As my first teacher was a TCM doctor Chiropractor Osteopath and Massage Therapist he explained Facia to all his students especially those of us who worked in the clinic
The explanations get more and more Jibber Jabber the longer this thread goes
Ting Jin is touching the Facia
Touch the Facia in the east attack the muscle in the west
But please don’t use Facia to cover a lack of understanding in the real basics of the art

[origami_itto]

Naw man the real reason is because you are a reflexive gatekeeper. You can't help yourself.

There have been monumental advancements in the scientific understanding of fascia in the last decade. As I doubt your first teacher was introducing you to the art during this time span, it is literally impossible for the information he gave you to be up to date.

If you want me to take your pearl clutching seriously... how about engaging meaningfully in the discussion? Adding something of value instead of just dismissing the contributions of others maybe?

I mean, I get that at a certain level, the study of kung fu, ima, ANY occult knowledge, really, is about knowing something that other people don't, and that in itself is precious. SECRET KNOWLEDGE others aren't privy to or fit to understand, how cool. Must be really mysterious stuff. We tend to want to just signal our knowledge to other insiders and shit on outsiders, and hey, man, that's fun stuff, I'm glad you get a lot of satisfaction from the practice. It seems very rewarding.

Please just don't pretend it's over concern for anyone or anything but protecting your own ego, though.

[wayne hansen]

Your lack of understanding of the basics of tai chi and the lessons of pushing show through here
I don’t think there are any secrets
It is all out there you just have to listen not to me but to the art
It’s not ego that promotes my answers but dedication and love of the art
As JFK said
Ask not what tai chi can do for u but what u can do for tai chi
I see nothing new being offered in the understanding of Facia
Thé vidéo you put up explains it exactly as my teacher did in 73
I am not threatened by anything said here like pushing I respond to the touch
I go into each thread with an opened mind
It is you that has a problem with me looking at little victories because your own training is satisfying your needs
No matter who your latest Zoom teacher is it dosent stop your itch
It is those people who approach me on the back channel that keep me posting here
As one said recently he couldn’t believe how polite I was to those who attack me
As I said I write for him not for those who will never understand
I sometimes wonder if drugs and alcohol or late night fatigue are involved in some of the posts here
Or is it just stumbling in the dark for any answer that will scratch that unrequited itch

[Bao]

I just let the fascia of my body expand as much as possible with my hands to avoid blurring everything in the waist and hips . "


...

Outlines what he feels he's doing in his practice, might answer some of your questions...

It explains NOTHING.

" and the fascia of the two feet did not extend along with it, "

Use the fascia of the feet? How??? Again: fascia cannot contract or expand by itself, only as a consequences of the movements of the body, internally or externally.

Here is a traditional way of explaning movement in Tai Chi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz7uAxPwMCE

"It's the ribs that are pressing, and the ribs are moving up and down"

"When the ribs are pressing, the qi is squeezed up from the Dantian."

But according to the "fascia-centric" teachers, he should say: "I use fascia."

If you say "I use fascia", how the heck would you know that he was speaking about the ribs???"

If he onlu said "I use fascia ", how would you knwo what fascia he was speaking about? The fascia covering the bones? Organs? Muscles? Or the fascia that connects muscles with the skin???
... Or the fascia covering the ribs?

The fascia-centric teachers would first need to teach their students mind-reading to make sense.

Good teachers explain what they actually do, they don't let their students guess between hundreds of different things and possibilities.

[windwalker]

What the teacher said makes perfect sense to me. If it doesn’t for you well, then, maybe you should seek to understand why ?

using the pinyin "jīnmó" instead of fascia
no one would’ve said anything .

It’s the word I heard used in China and other places not really associating it with the Western word of
Fascia, until recently. Kind of like, so that’s what they’re talking about.
Explained in a western way.

Note the difference in the discussion between those who use it,
and those who do not..

Like asking about "Qi" and trying to redefine it in a way that one does not use....
People I've worked with in the past didn't say much their explanation was through doing or showing, allowing one to feel and see.

[windwalker]

I just let the fascia of my body expand as much as possible with my hands to avoid blurring everything in the waist and hips . "


...

Outlines what he feels he's doing in his practice, might answer some of your questions...

It explains NOTHING.

" and the fascia of the two feet did not extend along with it, "

Use the fascia of the feet? How??? Again: fascia cannot contract or expand by itself, only as a consequences of the movements of the body, internally or externally.

Here is a traditional way of explaning movement in Tai Chi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz7uAxPwMCE

"It's the ribs that are pressing, and the ribs are moving up and down"

"When the ribs are pressing, the qi is squeezed up from the Dantian."

what is "qi" what is a "dantian"

But according to the "fascia-centric" teachers, he should say: "I use fascia."

"no they might talk about the use and function of the "jīnmó"


If you say "I use fascia", how the heck would you know that he was speaking about the ribs???"

Sink the "Qi" is n't that what traditional teacher say, do people know what this means,
what does it mean ?

If he onlu said "I use fascia ", how would you knwo what fascia he was speaking about? The fascia covering the bones? Organs? Muscles? Or the fascia that connects muscles with the skin???
... Or the fascia covering the ribs?

The fascia-centric teachers would first need to teach their students mind-reading to make sense.

Good teachers explain what they actually do, they don't let their students guess between hundreds of different things and possibilities.

The good teachers I've met said very little, they did want you to feel what they were doing and asked that should there be any questions, one could try anything. They wanted one to see and feel how it works.

Or they allowed people to film some of their work to help them understand.

If one didn't get it, they had them go back to the basics until they did.....

[suckinlhbf]

Appledog,



Here is the clip. The difference is 1) feel the body, aware of the hands and feet, or 2) feel the hands and feet, aware of the body.

[Appledog]

I just let the fascia of my body expand as much as possible with my hands to avoid blurring everything in the waist and hips . "


It explains NOTHING.

What the teacher said makes perfect sense to me. If it doesn’t for you well, then, maybe you should seek to understand why ?

I am pretty sure I understand what he said too, but I disagree that the source of the movement is the fascia.

..." how it can be used in training..."
You can not use it in training, you train It undirectly for removing all >internal blockades<,
this gives you uninterrupted internal connection, which allows you to use technique as it was designed.

I mean come on, even wiesiek gets it

Like asking about "Qi" and trying to redefine it in a way that one does not use....

Ironically yes.

Good teachers explain what they actually do, they don't let their students guess between hundreds of different things and possibilities.

People I've worked with in the past didn't say much their explanation was through doing or showing, allowing one to feel and see.

I too like to have an understanding of what is going on but in the end there is a price you must pay to learn these things and no amount of explanation will help.

This thread makes me think about Master Jou Tsung-Hwa a lot. I had a signed copy of his book once. I lent it to a friend who took very poor care of the book, and as time would tell, the art. The book didn't help him much, because he didn't really do any work on his own.

[Appledog]

Appledog,



Here is the clip. The difference is 1) feel the body, aware of the hands and feet, or 2) feel the hands and feet, aware of the body.

Thanks! Getting a connection to the feet is something difficult for me but I am starting to pick it up in things like 'supporting the sky and searching the sea'.

As coicidence would have it, a passing lohan quan guy visited us in the park. I don't know if there is a connection between lohan gong like your clip and what he did but he was refreshingly crisp. Funny incident. We asked him to show it to us and since he was dressed casually his keys flew out of his pocket near the beginning of the form. He just ignored it and kept going. During this incident my daughter said look, he dropped his keys, and I told her yes, but he won't pick them up yet.

It's unrelated but an old lesson I was told by Patrick Kelly. When you demonstrate you are the teacher so there can't be any embarrassment, as you are then in a higher position than the watcher. So even him dropping his keys is actually a deep lesson on martial arts and not an embarrassment at all. But if it happened to me I might be embarrassed if I didn't know that lesson.

This posture reminds me a lot of one of the movements in a set I do, called Draw the Bow on Both Sides.

[everything]

i like that draw bow exercise and their demo. this makes me think here are some simple experiments instead of just a bunch of weird theories. 1. if you hold your palms and do the beginner lesson of "make a qi ball", does it make a difference how "open" your hand is? how "stretched" some of the fascia in your hands is? i think it does, but it's really more about "yi". 2. if you do something like "draw bow", versus, just do "standing", what gives you "more qi" feeling? to me it's about "yi" and "fang song" more than "stretching". "tendon changing" and "marrow washing" is from the inside-out, not the outside-in. otherwise we can just do the best "conventional" workouts.

[suckinlhbf]

a connection between lohan gong

It is one of the move in the set. My teacher was the first group of students of Luo Guang Yu (Praying Mantis) when Luo started HK Chin Wo in 1929. They had to do the set before they left classes. This set is different than the one in the book of Huang Hanxun. I was told it is from Shaolin.

When you demonstrate you are the teacher so there can't be any embarrassment

When I teach, I learn from the teaching and from the group. I encourage them to question me and challenge me so I can find my flaws. The thinking is quite different.

Draw the Bow on Both Sides.

The movement is kind of similar and we sit deep.

[origami_itto]

" and the fascia of the two feet did not extend along with it, "

Use the fascia of the feet? How??? Again: fascia cannot contract or expand by itself, only as a consequences of the movements of the body, internally or externally.

But it can. Research is showing that it does contract, albeit slowly, and it can be trained to hold elastic tension.

What you're missing is that it isn't something that you use in isolation, it's like an added ingredient that ties things together. It's relevant in how it permeates and affects the functioning of the musculature.

Don't even think of it as separate, think of it like the crust on the bread, kinda. The connective tissue permeates the ligaments and bones and acts like ropes tying the various muscle groups together. So when I flex my wrist I can do that in a way that isolates my forearm or I can engage the fascia and have the movement affect my shoulder and back.

By the same token, when I touch my toes and then stand up straight, I can do that in a way that isolates the muscular action in my lower back, or I can engage the fascia and involve my calves and shoulders.

This is Jin. Li is contraction.

I shared the formula for elastic force in my blog on zhong ding. Muscular force winds up coming down to the FxMA model but elastic force is XxD where X is the elasticity of the material and D is the amount of deformation.

In this case X = energy stored in the musculature (red tissue, tendon, and fascia) through negative loading, we can also add gravitational potential energy in most cases to get more bang for the buck. When you start trying to add contractions into the system that introduces break points and take points that block the energy. D is reduced due to being cut in half, like if you had a rubber band and then cut it, you can't get the same stretch, and therefore power, out of the shorter piece. Tension also impacts our mobility while holding the energy.

Do you NEED to know about it? No, sure, you can just do the exercise until shit clicks, or it might not ever click. It's just a piece of information, like being guided through exercises and shown how to engage it and work it.

For my experience, it's painful, slow, and difficult work.

blah blah blah blah blah

Whatever man, still not a bit of useful or relevant information in your post. Just you saying how much more you know and how wrong everybody is. Good for you, Wayne. You are super smart.

I'd love to hear about the basics you think I lack. I'm just here to talk and learn. Just tired of the constant reminders that you've got a 30 year head start on me. Cool. If you're not sharing anything useful who gives a shit?

And you don't, man, all you EVER say is that so and so is doing whatever wrong, okay, great man, show us something more than a 20 year old video poorly presenting a bad summary of a Cheng Man Ching essay.

Smart people sound like crazy people to dumb people, it is my curse.