It's Fascia-nating

[Giles]

@ Kelley
Ho-hum, I guess we'll just have to differ on this one. And I need to keep it short here, because like I said I'm a bit ill and prefer to spend just a moment on this. Plus it's maybe off-topic anyway.
Whatever: I'm trained in craniosacral therapy (not a highly experienced practitioner, but done some stuff over the last 10 years or so). When I put my hands on someone, a client, I can connect for instance with the skin, or with a certain layer of fascia, or with the muscles and tendons, or with the arterial blood flow, or the venous blood flow, or the bones, or the nervous system, certain viscera etc. etc. etc. Plus a range of more 'energy-expressed' layers within and around the physical body: short tide, mid-tide, long tide; fluid body, dynamic stillness, etc. etc. (yeah, it's horribly woo-woo ). What I connect with and influence depends on my focus and attentiveness, and in some cases (e.g. skin or fascia or muscles or bones) also on subtle variations in the physical force I exert through actual touch. Connecting with one system doesn't preclude connecting with others, either consecutively or simultaneously. Of course they are all connected and in the end you're always connecting with the person, with the system as a whole. Influencing the whole system through different 'portals' of awareness and level. But the focus and the effect can be differentiated, nonetheless. That's my experience, anyway; it's what I was trained to do and, without by any means being a master of the discipline, I can do it to some extent. But probably OT and no way do I want this to turn into a beef .

[Kelley Graham]

I understand perfectly your approach. I would characterize it as 'blending'. My approach differs greatly.

[wayne hansen]

Two of my top students do CRANEO sacral
One said to me when learning it she could never have felt it without the pushing we had done
The other one Richard has done everything
The joke in class is when someone mentions something a bit out there
I say Richard’s done that and sure enough he has
I am not saying CS and Facia don’t work in pushing and can’t be effected by massage
What I am saying is there is no special way to train them in exercise that dosent fit in the overall tai chi training way
Also anyone who talks about the Facia continually most likely has nothing of importance to teach
I heard someone say the other day that Jing is the Chinese name for Facia
Jing is the outcome of refined energy training not an organ or some physical combination
The Facia can’t be worked without the things it binds being activated first
Just like your favorite suit of clothes cant walk out the door by its self
If someone says Facia more than 3 times in teaching
Put on your coat and walk out the door

[origami_itto]

Some people think knowledge is worth having for it's own sake.

Knowledge of self is the most precious kind.

[wiesiek]

and you see, we get to the point
were you have to wear the suit,
apparently, it can not go out for itself
but
you have to clean it up and repairs holes before wearing

[wayne hansen]

That’s my point
Just show me one exercise that in your words cleans or repairs the Facia

[origami_itto]

Oh so NOW Wayne wants FREE KUNGFU!

[wayne hansen]

Your just embarrassing yourself now

[windwalker]

The word for fascia in Chinese is "筋膜" (jīnmó)

Sometime it is hard to associate Chinese Word with English Word.

In the older time (100 years ago, may not be so old), they claimed some practices were on "筋膜". Sit on a low horse stance, put both hands out to the front with palms facing out, fully stretch the hands, move the palms horizontally to the side of the body, retract the palms straightly back to the side of the body, pull out again. and then repeat. The original saying is to focus on the palm and foot, don't use any force, do it causally and steadily with "元气".

They did not explain how but let the practitioners to find out by doing it.

The way of training with my teacher at the time.
So much so, that some of the local people would quit after practicing for a couple of years or more feeling he was not telling them how to do it..
With me having little to no Chinese language ability. The only thing I could do was train, listen, watch and practice

He would say something when I left back to the US returning the next yr...
Usually one word of something I should pay attention to like "your not straight"

Allowing me a yr to work it out before my next visit...a slow process
One that might produce the skill set but not a deep understanding of the skill..
Like riding a bike,,,one can do it, with out being able to explain or needing to know how they are able to do it...


@ Giles,

woo woo stuff

Studied a type of body work known as Esalen, probably a mistake as I was more interested in tigger points...
which the course did touch on among other modalities.

Would later go on to use "no touch" in working with people getting good results based on releasing trigger points,
with what might be called a "Qi" based awareness approach.

Not something I kept up with but do use in helping those I work with in the "taiji" work
helping release inner tensions or blockages as they arise or are identified...

[origami_itto]

Your just embarrassing yourself now

You must be the life of the party everywhere you go.

Studied a type of body work known as Esalen, probably a mistake as I was more interested in tigger points...

[Giles]

I understand perfectly your approach. I would characterize it as 'blending'. My approach differs greatly.

Cool. More than one way to skin a cat. Or facilitate its fascial connections.

[Giles]

Two of my top students do CRANEO sacral
One said to me when learning it she could never have felt it without the pushing we had done

My push hands experience absolutely helped me in learning and practicing 'cranio'. (Once I'd overcome the initial barrier of "Shit, I've been sitting here with my hands resting on fellow students for several hours and I think I feel zilch.... ).
And the cranio experience has been great support for my push-hands development after that. Not only for slow stuff, also for fast stuff.

I am not saying CS and Facia don’t work in pushing and can’t be effected by massage
What I am saying is there is no special way to train them in exercise that dosent fit in the overall tai chi training way

I'm saying that too.
Just to add, in response to a previous request/question of yours: So where can you feel tai chi actually affecting fascia?
In Huang's 1st Loosening Exercise, for instance. If you (generic 'you') do it quite slowly: first releasing the area in and around kua, hips and lower back while ensuring that the crown of the head doesn't lose any altitude and simultaneously the neck remains loose. As the hips start to internally soften/sink and the crown remains up, even before the shoulders and elbows start to drop externally, a subtle stretching sensation may be felt up, along and around the spine, up the neck and through to the top of head, maybe even as far as the forehead. The final stage of this mobilization chain is the 'epicranial aponeurosis', if anyone's interested.
Is this 'important' for training Loosening No.1? No, not really, but it's a good sign you're doing well. If the connections are already good, if you've been training well for a long time, then maybe the feeling will subside again or become ever subtler because the good changes have already been realized. In a truly mobile and integrated body, you feel less and less within yourself in terms of resistance, body obstacles or stretches - just a sense of ease and of mind being transformed instantaneously into motion. (Not my own consistent overall state, of course )

[wiesiek]

That’s my point
Just show me one exercise that in your words cleans or repairs the Facia

oh Wayne, You`re lookin` for the one Holly Grail to drink directly,
where you have ready already
108 at least.

U missed my post, probably I think (from time to time I really do), `cause I posted
in this very thread >> u can not train it directly<<<

best W

[origami_itto]

That’s my point
Just show me one exercise that in your words cleans or repairs the Facia

oh Wayne, You`re lookin` for the one Holly Grail to drink directly,
where you have ready already
108 at least.

U missed my post, probably I think (from time to time I really do), `cause I posted
in this very thread >> u can not train it directly<<<

best W

I really think this is the function of finding and intensifying the foot-to-hand, hand-to-hand, bai hui to cv1, foot to foot connections and stretches through the movements. It starts to grow into a tangible feeling of resistance that wants to snap when released.

Alex Dong's fundamental qigong really does a great job of helping you discover this energy in the body.

[Appledog]

The word for fascia in Chinese is "筋膜" (jīnmó)

In the older time (100 years ago, may not be so old), they claimed some practices were on "筋膜". Sit on a low horse stance, put both hands out to the front with palms facing out, fully stretch the hands, move the palms horizontally to the side of the body, retract the palms straightly back to the side of the body, pull out again. and then repeat. The original saying is to focus on the palm and foot, don't use any force, do it causally and steadily with "元气".

They did not explain how but let the practitioners to find out by doing it.

The way of training with my teacher at the time. [...]
Like riding a bike,,,one can do it, with out being able to explain or needing to know how they are able to do it...

This is called plucking, like a guzheng. Like Ba Duan Jin draw the bow. Right?







To get it you first have to open your lung channel. Here are some basic lung channel exercises I found randomly on youtube. Although I prefer a different set of exercises I think these might do the trick and if you didn't open the lung channel you should start somewhere. I bet there is a better set of lung channel exercises out there somewhere but I am just lazy.

By the way I hate riding bikes. Don't worry I am just a grumpycat today.