Lessons from Wu Style: The Square Form

[robert]

When I learned Chen village style I was taught counts. The teaching method was a bit different from CZH's in that we were taught to be relaxed, not rigid. Here is Chen Bing teaching silk reeling. This is a front facing circle. There is a count in, a count out and a count for the circle. The count for the circle starts at 2:09 and goes to 4:19. Note that it is a four count. This is the square in the circle. With training the arm makes a more circular motion, but there are still four distinct jin in the circle.

[charles]

As Robert points out, it is common in Chen Village to teach "by the numbers", breaking each movement into individual numbered actions, individual exercises as well as forms. This is done primarily for Lao Jia. I don't know for how long it has been taught that way in the Village, or who first implemented it.

In my opinion, the genius of Hong was his identification that every single movement in Taijiquan is a variation of the two basic whole-body "circles". As an aside, my experience with Liu Chengde, Hong's longest standing disciple, is that he does not teach "by the numbers". I don't know if Hong, himself, taught that way.

[windwalker]

Examples of not not straight line. using White Crane Spreads wings

[origami_itto]

for context, dependent on the method one follows illustrates what is thought to be the differences

This force is obtained through training and is a acquired postnatal force.

This seemed odd to me.

Threw the whole block into the ai just for a laugh, it's a bit muddled.

Generally speaking, so-called jin is to concentrate one's spirit, intention, and qi to a single point, and then apply this point to a certain posture. After long-term training, it will gradually expand and grow, becoming a kind of power. This kind of power is acquired through training and is a kind of acquired clumsy power. This kind of power is large in form, slow in momentum, slow to change, and direct in movement. When used in combat, because of the large body movements and strong momentum, it easily affects the fluctuation of internal qi and is prone to浮躁 (agitation). This is similar to the training methods and requirements of Changquan (Northern Longfist).

That's this section here.

經過長期的鍛煉以後，就會逐漸擴大增長起來，變成一種力.

So I threw THAT into the AI for more detail.

English translation:
After long-term training, it will gradually expand and grow, becoming a kind of power.
Pinyin romanization of each character:
經過 (jīngguò): to pass through; after; via
長期 (chángqí): long-term; prolonged
的 (de): possessive particle
鍛煉 (dànliàn): to train; to exercise
以後 (yǐhòu): afterwards; after; later
就會 (jiùhuì): will; shall; is bound to
逐漸 (zhújiàn): gradually; step by step
擴大 (kuòdà): to expand; to enlarge
增長 (zēngzhǎng): to grow; to increase
起來 (qǐlái): up; upwards; to rise
變成 (biànchéng): to become; to turn into
一種 (yīzhǒng): a kind of; a type of
力 (lì): power; strength; force

It stood out to me because post natal has particular meaning and implications, and it doesn't seem to be in the text unless it's somehow inferred.
I'd expect it to be 產後 Chǎnhòu

I dunno, just thought that was interesting, translation is such a troublesome endeavor.

[windwalker]

[
I dunno, just thought that was interesting, translation is such a troublesome endeavor.

If you can do it, or have experienced from those who can its very obvious.

Recently back from Taiwan, much discussion on the same things..
lots of misunderstanding by those who are close, countered by those
who don't follow or disbelieve the method..ie prove it...

With those that can do, choosing not to become to involved maybe feeling its pointless....
As the base reasons for people looking for or contrary to the development of it..

ie for some their cup, is very full...they like the flavor of their drink..

quite interesting and funny

[wayne hansen]

The two clips above just show the student pushing themselves away
They add nothing to the conversation

[origami_itto]

Examples of not not straight line. using White Crane Spreads wings

That's not really what I'm talking about. If you remain in contact with something you can produce multiple vectors in succession. To break or tease up the root or put them into a "ready to be beaten position".
That isn't a "release" and the changes in vector occur at different points in time and you're completely misunderstanding literally everything about the phenomenon.
This does not look like very high level skill to me. The way he's leaning forward 30 degrees from his ankles looks highly problematic. If the student were to NOT RESIST the teacher would fall flat on his face here.
What he's doing is putting pressure on the student's back leg and moving the point of contact forward to put more pressure into the system. At a certain point there is more force routed to a free angle than into the pressure he is applying and the student's mass escapes into that.

This is the closest part to true "release" in the way I'm describing.

At this point in the dynamic of the exchange, the student uses his legs to adjust his trajectory by hopping so the single vector becomes spoiled by that outside force.

You can change the direction your muscles are applying force, and you can apply more than one force vector to something that you are in contact with. You cannot RELEASE in more than one direction, the most you can do is one vector with rotation.

EVEN IF you are applying multiple vectors of force as you release, the escape vector of the body will be a single product of their combination. It cannot go in two directions at once.

[origami_itto]

[
I dunno, just thought that was interesting, translation is such a troublesome endeavor.

If you can do it, or have experienced from those who can its very obvious.

Recently back from Taiwan, much discussion on the same things..
lots of misunderstanding by those who are close, countered by those
who don't follow or disbelieve the method..ie prove it...

With those that can do, choosing not to become to involved maybe feeling its pointless....
As the base reasons for people looking for or contrary to the development of it..

ie for some their cup, is very full...they like the flavor of their drink..

quite interesting and funny

I really find it hard to get anything meaningful out of the sideways way you talk about things.

Mission accomplished?

[D_Glenn]

My teacher Dr. Xie said that Post Heaven/natal is literally everything that you do after you are born. It’s how you can manipulate your epigenetic dna in either a healthy or unhealthy way.

Pre Heaven is the dna that you are born with.

So most of the musings that you come across about Pre and Post Heaven are gibberish, unless the musings actually teach a student something, then that fact alone gives that interpretation it’s own intrinsic value that can’t be discounted.

.

[Bob]

Not sure this adds to the discussion much but it does help illustrate the complexity of fajin and its synergistic employment of combined jins in which the strike is delivered

Thanks Bob,

Adam always good to watch.

As far as related to the discussion, what is shown is not really much different then any other way of delivering what might be called an external force..

Just as most of comments posted all deal when looked at in context to how force is "defined" are all external expressions of it. Not that "force" in itself is a bad only that depending on ones practice, and out look. one is rather limited the other developed differently not so much depending on what has been posted, allowing it to be used in a different way...

This teacher talks about the difference's later on about "internal external combined" in use....



Yang Taiji (Tai Chi) Training - Nei Jin and Fa Jin


Other methods and teachers develop and use methods completely dependent on "internal" allowing for expressions of it that can not be done any other way...Using demos of it, almost always questioned by those either not developing this type of force or haven't developed it...

In Taiwan also a subject of debate sometimes heated, that is "until it's felt"

What is better dependent on ones own choices and interest...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP-H5pDHTaY

I won't belabor the point of internal/external but with the baji I learned, if done properly, from the Liu Yunqiao line, the "external" is built upon and expresses an "internal" foundation.

The square idea in this line of baji is captured in the symbol of rectangle composed within the square contained within the circle - this is the fundamental nature of the xiao baji training which is the root of any of the other baji forms such as the da baji and others. Xiao baji jia is trained from posture to posture initially with specific relaxed breathing/upper lower body tension (yin upper yang lower) and proper alignment (square overall body and triangle elbow/arm, knee leg) and power driven by smoothness and roundness

This should all be laid out in the xiao baji training when taught properly in Liu Yunqiao line (at least as to how I learned it knowing full well that others have different ideas about this). In addition to the neigong practices independent of the xiao baji practice itself and ultimately to the linkage da qiang development both slow, relaxed and fast and hard.

In short there is no separation of internal/external but rather an integrated whole changing with dynamic movement - so it is of no surprise that you would infer the baji expressed by Adam Hsu in the clip is an external expression which of course it is but driven by internal dynamics. Different from taijiquan but, as Liu once said, "All sons of the same mother."

So the "square" form for this baji is incorporated into the practice and development in the xiao baji stage

One very, very small sample of this is illustrated in this clip (actually we learned this along with a few others even before we learned xiao baji jia) At the :40 mark you can a sense of this - triangle, square in static posture and then circle in moving posture - generally speaking it's a 3 year process with persistent and consistent training

Most importantly this is only a small sample of what is trained - It's difficult to present the whole overview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHiRqDjTGPw

[windwalker]

[quote="origami_itto"
I really find it hard to get anything meaningful out of the sideways way you talk about things.

Mission accomplished?[/quote]

Try emptying your cup..
of course if they like the drink,,,why would one ?

As Wayne, often says...
there are others who get it....the writing is for them...

[windwalker]

I won't belabor the point of internal/external but with the baji I learned, if done properly, from the Liu Yunqiao line, the "external" is built upon and expresses an "internal" foundation.

No need to....Met some baji, people in Taiwan who practiced a softer method...
What is termed "internal" can be quite different depending on level of skill developed.

Lots of writing by many here, notice no clips what "they" can do....or not ....
with out which, little to know point in "talking" about it..as it's not clear if one can do what they'er writing about...

[Bob]

I won't belabor the point of internal/external but with the baji I learned, if done properly, from the Liu Yunqiao line, the "external" is built upon and expresses an "internal" foundation.

No need to....Met some baji, people in Taiwan who practiced a softer method...
What is termed "internal" can be quite different depending on level of skill developed.

Lots of writing by many here, notice no clips what "they" can do....or not ....
with out which, little to know point in "talking" about it..as it's not clear if one can do what they'er writing about...

You exactly made my point (highlighted) - I appreciate that.

[Bao]

Arrows only go in a straight line in space.

They curve because an outside force, gravity, is pulling them to earth. The impelling force goes in one and only one vector.

You are both wrong.

First, there's nothing such thing as a "gravitation" force pulling things down. There's no force at all, it's the mass of the earth that curves the space, and this curvature acts as drawing and pushing things down towards the center of this space distortion. So the path of the arrow still goes in a straight line. Even "in space" if it's affected by curvatures of objects in space, the force is still straight.

[Bao]

My teacher Dr. Xie said that Post Heaven/natal is literally everything that you do after you are born. It’s how you can manipulate your epigenetic dna in either a healthy or unhealthy way.

Pre Heaven is the dna that you are born with.

So most of the musings that you come across about Pre and Post Heaven are gibberish, unless the musings actually teach a student something, then that fact alone gives that interpretation it’s own intrinsic value that can’t be discounted.

When we speak about "pre-" and "post" natal/heavenly aspects, we are speaking about Chinese philosophy, not modern western science. According to Chinese tradition, your body still have original essence, or yuan jing, but through life you slowly exchange this essence through the air your breath and the food you consume and when the original essence is gone you die. Pre-natal qi/movements is something you are hopefully taught through internal practice, it's something that stores and protects the essence so you can stay healthy in old age and live longer.