Jinlou - Tendons and Meridians and Fasica (Oh My)

[windwalker]

with out a demonstrated benefit ie "video" of it showing a difference between knowing it, and not knowing it.
what would it matter what anyone's teacher said, or what was written down ?

Just to satisfy my own curiosity. But you’re right, what does it matter, I will just keep it to myself.

understanding its a discussion,,,what you post or anyone post, the reasons for doing so or not,
up to all who post...

[D_Glenn]

The late Liu Yunqiao also described something pretty similar - once you reach a certain level of training one could sit with relaxed breathing, and think qi to the hand - it was described as a warming sensation and a swelling of the hand (increased blood flow).

Once you had a achieved a certain level of this development you could engage it (think it, intend it) from any posture/position for fighting usage. Not magical just another tool for your tool box.

We never knew whether it came from training in his bajiquan, baguazhang, or both.

The qigong we do can be done while sitting in a chair or on the floor but typically standing. Moving blood out to the hands in Zhan Zhuang is something that you want to happen fast but it takes a lot of practice over a long span of time. Early spring in Colorado can be pretty brisk. Jinbao was showing me that using Intent to move blood, also brings heat and the pore’s open to sweat. Everyone who practices our standing should have sweat dripping out from their hands and making a small puddle. It helps that we mostly have open palm methods because the fist postures will make your hands waterlogged like when you stay in a bath too long. But he was saying that the palms are just the beginning. In the cold morning and without any warming up he got into a stance and within 10 seconds he had beads of sweat forming on his forehead. But this is still too slow to have any real applicability in a fight. The Intent though, that is fast, and that is something that one can use in applications.

So the main purpose is to train your Yi to a high level. Blood is just the tangible measuring stick to track your own progress. Plus blood brings oxygen to tissues in your arms and hands that are normally deprived. Hard styles hit things and swing their arms to get more blood out. We use our mind to move blood which in turn strengthens the forearms and hands. So it is all martial. But it’s more like a sharpening stone for your sword. While the sword is what you fight with. A person can fight with a dull sword. But you’re spending time practicing anyway. Why not just use your Yi and fight with a sharper sword.

[taiwandeutscher]

Yes:
Jingluo 經絡 main and secondary conduits (Chin. medical theory)
vs. Jinmai or Jindao 勁脈 or 勁道 pathways for refined (trained) force (MA theory).

[Appledog]

I notice you write JingLuo. I too wanted to write Jingluo because I believe that’s how I heard it pronounced. But I instead edited myself. Can you confirm?

經絡; pinyin: jīngluò

Yes:
Jingluo 經絡 main and secondary conduits (Chin. medical theory)
vs. Jinmai or Jindao 勁脈 or 勁道 pathways for refined (trained) force (MA theory).

The meridian system is typically divided into two categories: Jingmai and Luomai. [...]

I assume the 12 tendinomuscular meridians are the same ones you mention.

As you see, jingmai does not mean jingluo, jingluo is a more comprehensive term.

I think basically is that in the past, when talking about zhan zhuang (holding martial postures) and movements, they would use the names of the meridians, which outsiders confused as the acupuncture meridians where qi runs, so they presumed that it was to mentally be moving qi energy through the meridian. But what they were actually talking about is the JinMai- what muscles and tendons are being activated and strengthened by that posture or movement. (Which does sort of correlate with the organ that the channel is named for but, in a more generalized sense of overall health improvement,
.

Considering the terms, and so on, and what windwalker said, I would conclude it is based entirely on perception and lineage. Without both you are swimming in the dark. Furthermore it is not that one cannot know if it is true or not from discussion. This is an old trope that has been shown to be false. As we know, it is possible in fact to say the wrong thing. Such as, chi is made of banannas. In that case you can easily know something is wrong.

It seems your teacher may know something and has passed it on to you, and that is a beautiful thing.

[windwalker]

Why not just use your Yi and fight with a sharper sword.

It's still based on the body.... sword
Not much different then any other CMA method

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan


一般理解，所谓劲儿，就是将人的精神、意念、精力集中在一点上，然后将这一点运用到某种姿势上。
去。 经过长期的锻炼，它会逐渐扩大、成长，成为一股力量。 这种力量是通过锻炼获得的。
这是后天的笨拙。 这种力的形体大、动量滞、变化迟、运动路径直。 它用于武术，因为身体会移动。
如果大，则运动量强，影响内气波动，容易浮躁。 这与长拳的训练方法和要求很接近。


Generally understood, the so-called Jin is to concentrate one's spirit, intention and energy on one point, and then apply this point to a certain posture.
go. After long-term exercise, it will gradually expand and grow and become a force. This kind of strength is obtained through exercise.
It’s acquired clumsiness. This type of force has a large form, stagnant momentum, delayed transformation, and a straight path of movement. It is used in martial arts because the body moves.
If it is large, the amount of exercise is strong, which affects the fluctuation of internal energy and makes it easy to be impetuous. This is close to the training methods and requirements of Changquan.

初練太極拳的人覺得太極拳的練法與上面的練法相似，其實不然。如果按照太極拳的理論要求
，經過一段時間的鍛煉，逐漸把理論與姿勢結合起來，就會很明顯地感覺出來，上面的練法和
要求是與太極拳不同的。練習太極拳的要求，是把本身的神、意、氣化合歸一，融合在一起，
形成一種輕靈圓活之勁兒。這種勁兒是以氣、意混之為主。它的本質是氣，對它的要求是空、
虛、散，而不是集聚的。這就是太極勁兒，又叫做先天勁兒。

For beginners in Tai Chi, they may perceive the practice of Tai Chi as similar to the one described above, but in reality, it is not the case. If one follows the theoretical requirements of Tai Chi, and after a period of training, gradually integrates theory with posture, it will become apparent that the methods and requirements mentioned above are different from Tai Chi. The practice of Tai Chi requires merging one's spirit, intention, and qi into one, blending together to form a kind of light, agile, and lively strength. This strength is primarily a blend of qi and intention. Its essence is qi, and its requirement is emptiness, vacuity, and dispersal, rather than accumulation. This is the Tai Chi strength, also known as innate strength.

Example of the latter method

[windwalker]

This is an old trope that has been shown to be false. As we know, it is possible in fact to say the wrong thing. Such as, chi is made of banannas. In that case you can easily know something is wrong.

.

When some arguing about what is correct and what is not a video would make it very clear about level of understanding and ability.
In China and Taiwan...of those encountered make a distinction between those that can talk about it, and those that can do it...very interesting at times

[Appledog]

This is an old trope that has been shown to be false. As we know, it is possible in fact to say the wrong thing. Such as, chi is made of banannas. In that case you can easily know something is wrong.

.

When some arguing about what is correct and what is not a video would make it very clear about level of understanding and ability.
In China and Taiwan...of those encountered make a distinction between those that can talk about it, and those that can do it...very interesting at times

So, if you were to post a video, what exactly would you demonstrate in that video that would contribute to this line of discussion over jingluo?

I think what you're saying is off-topic here. It's a nice sentiment, but I just don't see how it applies to the topic. Either you can talk about things like jingluo or you can't. No video will ever demonstrate a high level of awareness over jingluo. There is no (obvious??) physical manifestation of it. So why ask for a video?

[windwalker]

So, if you were to post a video, what exactly would you demonstrate in that video that would contribute to this line of discussion over jingluo?

Movement

I think what you're saying is off-topic here. It's a nice sentiment, but I just don't see how it applies to the topic. Either you can talk about things like jingluo or you can't.

No video will ever demonstrate a high level of awareness over jingluo.
There is no (obvious??) physical manifestation of it. So why ask for a video?

Illustrates what I'm talking about

If one can do it, they would know when seeing it...


Regardless, as noted it's an interesting discussion.

[everything]

didn't even know all those distinctions existed. more interested in it for TCM theory curiosity. if those who can "do" make some distinction in meridian type for their yi->qi-> jin skill, though, then my curiosity is more IMA-oriented. we know sprinters have "fast twitch" "li" and marathoners use "slow twitch" "li", but doubt those athletes think about it or need to know too much theory on the fibers they use to win races.

[origami_itto]

I mean, talk is DEFINTELY cheap.

[Bob]

Why not just use your Yi and fight with a sharper sword.

Not my quote - did not write that.

[D_Glenn]

Windwalker, I believe the power that Wang Yongquan is talking about is what is and was common during his time, which is when someone does a Zhan Zhuang for as long as they can in one session. In my school of Baguazhang we practice in 5 minute intervals. 5 minutes on one side, return to Wuji, then 5 minutes on the other side. Then take a decent break then repeat. The focus is on using one’s Yi (one of the Five Shens). If blood is there, then qi by the nature of how it functions is also there. 5 minute intervals of Zhan Zhuang is the key to developing the Bagua Body that is pure Yin / Kun trigram in the end.
Circle Turning (Xing Zhuang) is more important than Zhan Zhuang in Baguazhang. It’s a Daoyin that cultivates, conserves jing, circulates energy and refines it. A person’s Weiqi makes a complete circulation around the whole body in 58 minutes. So in order to ensure that during a Circle Walking session you cover 1 circulation then at least one hour is ideal; and a half hour minimum. It takes 20 minutes to just warm up so that would at least give you 10 minutes of actual practice so you’re better off doing Zhan Zhuang if you only have 20 minutes to practice, Weiqi doesn’t flow through channels. It is like an ocean that exists in the fascia layers. It circulates as if there was a gravitational moon circling around your body and pulling your Weiqi like the tidal flow in an ocean. You don’t want autonomous control over the circulation of Weiqi so don’t think about. It’s only mentioned in regards to the length of time you practice. In Circle Turning it’s the thighs that are moving blood through your body so the Intention can be divided between your Hand, Dantian and Head. You want to seek the Circulation of 營氣 Ying Qi through the meridians. You don’t need to know anything about the meridians or anything. Just think of flow or filling up the container. You can’t force anything. Observe but don’t seek control. The exercise itself will do all the work for you, provided that you are following all the requirements. Through the years of cultivation that’s happening during Circle Walking you will convert Ying Qi to true energy/ vitality 炁 Qì.

I was a martial student of my Grandteacher so he only demonstrated stuff on me in a martial context and it happened at speed. Acupuncturists who studied with him got to experience the slow moving Daoyin and learn the its benefits for healing patients.
Funny that you post a Taijiquan text but then a video of a Bagua guy. The Bagua path is slightly different than Taijiquan, because it requires Circle Walking. But I think the specificity of the Circle Walking will bring about things more quickly than Taiji. You will know things firsthand and be less reliant upon your teacher. You quickly become your own teacher.

[windwalker]

Funny that you post a Taijiquan text but then a video of a Bagua guy.
The Bagua path is slightly different than Taijiquan, because it requires Circle Walking. But I think the specificity of the Circle Walking will bring about things more quickly than Taiji.

You will know things firsthand and be less reliant upon your teacher. You quickly become your own teacher.

might follow your own advice, which is why videos of ones work help to clear up understanding or misunderstandings.
Can you do what you write about,,,,very simple

My teacher had practiced and was noted for his bagua,,,back in the day before meeting his..

"Funny that you post a Taijiquan text but then a video of a Bagua guy. "

What the text says and the bagua "guy" notes is the same...

[D_Glenn]

I’m not being a jerk here but is there anyway that you can edit your post so that it’s readable. If not that’s fine. But as it is now there’s no way I can write a response to it.

[windwalker]

I’m not being a jerk here but is there anyway that you can edit your post so that it’s readable. If not that’s fine. But as it is now there’s no way I can write a response to it.

Kind of makes my point. If one can do what they write about, less words are needed to convey the idea.

For example, what the bagua teacher talked about are the same ideas and principles that was posted in the writing of the taiji teacher and others .

You might ask your teacher . To translate what was being said, and who that teacher was .

Mentioned in the spirit of discussion