Taijiquan and word usage "Tongbei": Anyone know?

[Steve James]

It is how tai chi uses it that makes the difference

Of course, how makes a difference.

Most tai chi people use fan in a very simplistic manner

Maybe, but nobody cares. If someone can make it work simply -to save their ass- it's better than people telling them there's a better way. Besides, simpler is better unless we're looking for bragging rights.

Anyway, there's no way Fan Through Back is an accidental name. People can disagree as to what it refers, but examples would be more enlightening.

[wayne hansen]

The thing is that most people who do it in a simplistic manner can’t use it to save their life

[Steve James]

Okay, but, frankly, if someone wants to learn to save their life in a year, let alone tomorrow, I'd say take tongbei or baji. Both are considered 'internal' (emphasizing qi development, etc), depending on who you talk to. They're just harder to find than tcc.

Ime, and I'd guess for the majority of tcc schools that actually focus on fighting, they take segments of the form and work on them -in a 'fighty' way. Speaking only for myself, we practiced kicks, but not like "Kick with left heel" in the form.

I think this is exactly why we see so many videos of tcc 'masters' not having the fundamental tools to simply defend themselves. Imo, it's only because they didn't learn how before they started practicing tcc. Even you wayne have mentioned that many of the students you've met were already skilled in some other martial art or sport.

Oh, found an article from Black Belt magazine about one my old schools in competition. Richard was an NCAA ranked wrestler, and Vincent had studied FuJow Pai at Wai Hong's school. Vincent and I started at the same time, only he was two days my senior. So we never competed,
"Tai Chi Wins Full Contact Competition"
https://books.google.com/books?id=zNIDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=vincent+sobers&source=bl&ots=AHU7Y4b6Sd&sig=ACfU3U3B7KitjuC5oOJzahD2xhzta5G5lQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWxP2NreyEAxXDFlkFHVTNBeMQ6AF6BAgjEAM#v=onepage&q=vincent%20sobers&f=false

[origami_itto]

It is how tai chi uses it that makes the difference

Of course, how makes a difference.

Most tai chi people use fan in a very simplistic manner

Maybe, but nobody cares. If someone can make it work simply -to save their ass- it's better than people telling them there's a better way. Besides, simpler is better unless we're looking for bragging rights.

Anyway, there's no way Fan Through Back is an accidental name. People can disagree as to what it refers, but examples would be more enlightening.

Welllll

The earliest written reference to the postures (on Brennan at least...) uses "mountain through back" which I thought was interesting.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... g-shuming/

山通背
[18] MOUNTAIN THROUGH THE BACK
撥山捶
[19] MOUNTAIN-FLATTENING PUNCH

But after that they seem to settle on fan.

Chapter V Nine
Secret Transmissions
on T'ai-chi ch'iian
From Wu Meng-hsia, T'ai-chi ch 'uan
chiu chueh chu-chieh (Nine secret
transmissions on T'ai<hi ch'iian
with annotations), Hong Kong:
T'ai-p'ing shu<hii, 1975. Author
received transmissions from
Niu Lien-yuan who received them
from Yang Pan-hou.

Secrets of T'ai-chi
Form Applications

Fan Through the Back employs the skill
of bracketing.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... u-yusheng/
22）扇通背式
FAN THROUGH THE BACK

（釋名）扇通背者、擬脊椎骨為扇軸。兩臂為扇幅。如扇之分張狀。通背者、使脊背之力。通於兩臂之謂也。
Explanation of the name:
FAN THROUGH THE BACK means that your spine is like the hinge of a fan and your arms are like the cloth of the fan, and it is like a fan spreading open. “Through the back” means that you send power from your spine through your arms.
（動作）有二、（一）立身合腕、（二）通背掌、
Two movements:
1. Stand up, bringing your wrists together.
2. Palm through the back.
（圖解）（一）立身兩腕相抱。（二）左足前進一步。左臂向前直伸。右臂彎曲上抬。手背覆額。此時須正身。兩腿成騎馬式。惟左足尖須前向。
Explanation for the drawing:
1. Stand up, your hands embracing toward each other.
2. Your left foot takes a step forward while your left arm extends forward and your right arm bends, lifting until the back of the hand covers your forehead. Your body should now be straight and your legs are making a horse-riding stance except that your left foot should be pointing its toes forward.



（注意）運勁時。左掌心之力與左肋骨相應。作向前之勢。同時右臂之力。須通於左手。此式練腿力及肩背力。
Points for attention:
When wielding energy, the power in your left palm must be coordinated with your left ribs in going forward, and at the same time the power in your right arm must go through to your left hand. This posture trains strength in your legs and upper back.
（應用）敵以右手擊來。卽以右手反刁敵腕上提。以左掌擊敵脅下。
Application:
If the opponent uses his right hand to strike, I then use my right hand to slyly lift his wrist and use my left palm to strike his ribs.

[Steve James]

Fan or mountain, the idea is "through (the) back." It's Shantongbei, but the action is "like" a fan opening.

FAN THROUGH THE BACK means that your spine is like the hinge of a fan and your arms are like the cloth of the fan, and it is like a fan spreading open. “Through the back” means that you send power from your spine through your arms.

[D_Glenn]

扇通背者、擬脊椎骨為扇軸。兩臂為扇幅。如扇之分張狀。通背者、使脊背之力。通於兩臂之謂也。
Explanation of the name:
FAN THROUGH THE BACK means that your spine is like the hinge Vertebrae is the axis (basically the middle of your back) of a fan and your arms are like the cloth of the fan, and it is like a fan spreading open. “Through the back” means that you send power from your spine back through your arms.

I don’t know how this Taiji movement actually moves but generally Tongbei is about using the whole upper back, mainly an extreme mobility of the shoulder blades, to move the whole arm, which naturally means that when one arm is forward then the other arm has to be back.

It looks like if you did that move in your Single Strike Practice (Dan Lian), then it would really incorporate that shoulder blade movement as you alternate from right side to left side.

[Steve James]

I don’t know how this Taiji movement actually moves but generally Tongbei is about using the whole upper back, mainly the shoulder blades, to move the whole arm, which naturally means that when one arm is forward then the other arm has to be back.

Fwiw, I agree. But, it's not absolute. In the diagrams above, it looks like Yang is moving forward. Imo, that's true because it is coming out of Needle at Sea Bottom. So, one has to imagine what is happening. What was the purpose of NASB? Anyway, as your right hand rises, it intercepts the opponent's right hand, attaches to it and 'nas' it to the rear while your left hand goes forward. That's why it looks like a fan opening, but the direction is forward.

Btw, doing the fan on both sides and turning the waist is a windmill -a basic tongbeiquan exercise.

[D_Glenn]

Steve, it sounds kind of like this strike from our Bagua Rooster system that uses the solar plexus area of the torso (basically a Tongbei power).


A sampling of some applications you can use with that movement:

.

[Steve James]

Imo, the idea of a double-wiping is right. In FTB, the shoulder blades open and close (yeah, from the spine). The still photo of the second app above is the same idea, except for the footwork -which is to be expected in bagua.

[D_Glenn]

Yeah try to we keep our front leg hooked inward.

That second still photo looks like his palm is horizontal, which you would want it to be otherwise you would be bending your own fingers backwards in the opponent’s armpit.

[D_Glenn]

The Rooster looks like it’s just blasting through but it’s an advanced style that requires a lot of sensitivity. That first wipe/ contact needs to be able to feel exactly what the opponent is doing or else you might just duck into the opponent’s strike. It’s not easy to do.

[Trick]

”windmilling” is what is commonly seen as TBQ by spectators（but there are tighter, lineary, direct exercises as important right from the beginners stage）, however there are tight small movements involved within the big exansive,leg-stance, footwork and how to put the mind into the exercises are of coourse important to get it right so it build up something of value for the practitioner, the large movements of the arms should feel effortless.
The result in sparring situations should be quite small tight,sharp,shocking power coming from ”invisable” arms/hands.

its as with the so called ”large” frame of TJQ - the large frame is all frames.

[Trick]

the TBQ methods was kept a secret for a long time for the reason that they reveald/taught and harnessed the correct boxing method in the practitioners body and mind in a very direct and short time, only the most trusted was to be taught.
these methods was what gave the TJQ masters back in the days their edge over most, reading ”classics” and other scholarly texts and theorized over this and that dantian,qi and such was not a neccesary frustating thing for them（in hope）to gain the true ”TJQ” skill, they just learned the TBQ methods ：）

[Steve James]

Sure, the windmilling isn't the art; it's body training, not necessarily a specific technique. There are plenty of short linear strikes, but imo all use whole body power. There are also styles, and they differ in some respects. Jarek would be able to talk about that. Anyway, the most familiar one is White Ape, and the legend is that it was modeled after a primate movement. Maybe gorilla arms and monkey feet.

Yeah, I was told it was 'well guarded' too. Actually, I heard it long ago, so I'm not sure if I'm getting it right but some martial arts were specific to occupations. Tongbeiquan was associated with prison guards. Otoh, he could have been talking about baji. It was over 30 years ago.

[D_Glenn]

I don’t know if this matters but years and years ago I was promoting the idea that Tongbei was the same as Bolangjin (crashing wave power as it’s called in Xingyi) aka Xiongyaozhedie (folding the chest and waist as it’s called in Chen Taiji). But I was mistaken. My teacher corrected me. The Tongbei is around the upper spine and generates power on a relatively horizontal plane. While the other movement is undulating the spine and generates a power on a relatively vertical plane. Both can use the rest of the body to transform the force onto the other plane. So the end result can cover all directions. But the base mechanisms are fundamentally different. In Bolangjin the movement of the upper spine, shoulder blades, and chest is simply called Shenfa. Shen referring to the upper torso while Yao aka Dantian refers to the lower torso.