Taijiquan and word usage "Tongbei": Anyone know?

[everything]

it's interesting this name "tong bei" afaik doesn't have a (language) connotation of "elephant trunk like swinging arms" but the videos being posted seem to be mainly about that. the Fedor "casting punch" seems to have a little bit of that ( a little bit of "haymaker", a little bit of overhand .... idk if it's supposed to be like a combo of those 3 of what).

toddler

any accidental strike from anyone (such as a stray elbow in a basketball game) who is "relaxed" can really, really get you for sure. just "you" being "relaxed" and kicking some furniture .... well let's just say my metatarsal is pretty darn damaged temporarily.

this all reminds me of that gif someone (graham?) posted of that girl in class doing "piquan" to some poor kid who was trying to pick on her. KOed him immediately IIRC.

[Trick]

Hammer fist, back fist, palm chop, ... all those circular striking is slower than those straight line strikes such as jab and cross. A straight line striking can be as fast as 1/4 second. Can a circular striking be as fast as 1/4 second?

What's the true combat value for those circular striking?

That’s a little odd post of yours considering that you’re a big fan of having a huge tool shed of combat techniques to lean on, or have I misunderstood you here?

Anyway TBQ has its linear striking too quite clear, and the huge “windmilling” people most often refer to as TBQ is more of a method of bodywork/bodybuilding however the mental application in those exercises are of importance too to eventuall have any combat value and understanding how the small is in the big, it’s not just windmilling.

[everything]

don't want to channel marvin8 too much (and just post endless theoretical gifs) as i know zero about these strikes IRL, but here's a breakdown of fedor's "casting (non linear) punch" (even though fedor says his straight jab is the most important punch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JISgLclfX3c

[wayne hansen]

Hit tiger nothing new

[wayne hansen]

I was trying to think who threw tong bei type punches in the UFC
Chuck Lidelle finally came to mind

[Steve James]

Most non-boxers throw wide, sweeping (horizontal) punches. Basic tbq strikes are (generally) more vertical/diagonal; think hammer fists and chops. Of course, as Trick said, there's no lack of straight/direct strikes -but they are still motivated by the same power (tongbei). Maybe a good analog might be the rope dart: i.e., the hands are like weights at the end of ropes connected to/through the back.

I used to get in trouble for saying that the windmill looks like the way girls in my nabe used to fight. Then again there's the saying "throw hands"

Anyway, afa as the ufc, Big Country, who studied choy li fut, is a better example than Chuck.

[everything]

Ah Big Country. Totally forgot about him. He fought as recently as Nov 2023 (split decision loss). It looks like he KOed an old (probably washed up post Fedor fight) Nogueira there. Also beat "Cro Cop" by KO before. So there is an "entire art" built around this kind of "elephant trunk like swing"? I guess that makes sense. Imagine what would happen if Big Country hit you with that. Is it a bit off topic from an "IMA" pov" or are people saying the "relaxation" is "internal" or something like that? Something else? I'm lost on why "tong bei" keeps coming up in the threads.

[twocircles13]

"Northern Chinese martial arts are all sons of the same mother."

I was taught the rest of that sentence was "So all martial artists are brothers." Now, that's a big haha.

@Steve James,
I wrote a reply a couple of days ago, but I failed to copy before I submitted and lost it to the ether.


Yes, I would say there is quite a bit of sibling rivalry. I remembered there was a second line but not the wording.

My Wutan teachers quoted both lines of the quote at times, but more often the first line as we were talking about different aspects of training. But, they may have said, “So, all martial arts are brothers.” rather than “artists.” I don’t remember. Either way, the first line stuck as an idea, and the second line internalized as an attitude.

[Bob]

"Northern Chinese martial arts are all sons of the same mother."

I was taught the rest of that sentence was "So all martial artists are brothers." Now, that's a big haha.

@Steve James,
I wrote a reply a couple of days ago, but I failed to copy before I submitted and lost it to the ether.


Yes, I would say there is quite a bit of sibling rivalry. I remembered there was a second line but not the wording.

My Wutan teachers quoted both lines of the quote at times, but more often the first line as we were talking about different aspects of training. But, they may have said, “So, all martial arts are brothers.” rather than “artists.” I don’t remember. Either way, the first line stuck as an idea, and the second line internalized as an attitude.

I recall learning the first line of the quote by Liu Yunqiao in the Blackbelt magazine article around the early 1980s (don't hold me to that date although I still have the article filed away somewhere in my stacks).

At that time Liu Yunqiao came over to Canada and the US - In Toronto he was hosted by disciple Dr. James Guo and went to Los Angeles where he was hosted by Wutan disciple Jason Tsou. The article may have been written by Jason Tsou but I'm not sure.

After a public demonstration Liu began a talk about the similarities among Northern Chinese martial arts - he was illustrating how if you change the posture footing of baji you can the transition to xing yi and taiji etc.

He then stated that, "Northern Chinese martial arts are all sons of the same mother." I don't recall any second line although it's quite possible he may have also added that.

The second line sounds like something from the series "Outlaws of the Marsh". Which also wouldn't surprise me LOL

[origami_itto]

Yes, I would say there is quite a bit of sibling rivalry.

"Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over."

[Steve James]

@Bob, I wouldn't doubt that Liu Yunqiao may have been the source. I do think he exemplified the idea in practice. The part about being brothers comes naturally if we accept we have the same mother.

I think the idea emerges with the nationalist movement, and the need for unification. It makes sense, especially when one considers that many mas had ethnic origins.

[twocircles13]

@Bob, I wouldn't doubt that Liu Yunqiao may have been the source. I do think he exemplified the idea in practice. The part about being brothers comes naturally if we accept we have the same mother.

I think the idea emerges with the nationalist movement, and the need for unification. It makes sense, especially when one considers that many mas had ethnic origins.

Yes, my teachers said the saying was taught within the system, and they left me with the impression it had been a common statement at one time that it entered the system troughh Liu Yunqiao. The point was never about brotherhood between martial artists. It was in relationship to how the styles from China, especially from northern China had a lot in common, and within the Wutan system, they worked synergistically., like brothers who cooperated with each other versus brothers who always fought.

The point was that each style had its strengths, especially, there were some things that each style taught more effectively than the others. As you got to certain points in your development, you might need to step into a different style to learn what you needed. So, the training jumped from one style to another and back again.

On at least one day, the topic of Tongbeiquan came up. My teachers demonstrated how many of the movements were similar to movements from Baji, Pigua, Taiji, and so on. He also demonstrated differences.

My current Chen Taijiquan teacher has also addressed this topic similarly and demonstrated.

[windwalker]

[
The point was that each style had its strengths, especially, there were some things that each style taught more effectively than the others. As you got to certain points in your development, you might need to step into a different style to learn what you needed. So, the training jumped from one style to another and back again.

Interesting,,,,out side of what was told to you, is this something you've personally done or went through

Asking IME found it to be completely opposite.... after spending some 5yrs or so, examining this
with taiji, and TWC...arriving at my own understanding of why its not possible..

my last taiji teacher was very explicit about not combining other things with taiji....

Even with those who study taiji, IME found it quite hard helping other long term taiji practitioners to modify their practices, helping them to achieve the direction they wanted to go most of the time not really possible...for them...Through their practices they've kind of shut the door that would allow deeper changes...

historically this was also noted

After the formalities were over, Zhang told Hu to practice only taijiquan, but Hu
was not really able to let go of his xingyi. He was already a great master, and
thus it was very difficult to "throw it out the window".

Zhang kept telling Hu that his jin (internal energy) was wrong - it was a xingyi type, not a taiji type of energy.
Hu said that there was nothing he could do because he had been practicing that
way for so long. Zhang decided to teach Hu the 81-Step form of taijiquan,
realizing that unless Hu was able to let go of his xingyi it would be quite difficult to
teach him Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan.

Other methods for examples Tibetan White Crane, and n-mantis something I'm familiar with don't integrate at all...

[Steve James]

Imo, it depends on the goals and whether they've been successful. Easiest example is mma. Studying wrestling will take away time from studying boxing or kicking. But, the goal is clear, and it doesn't really matter if someone is better at one aspect or the other.

It may be true that if one studies tcc, one's white crane may suffer -or vice versa. But, so what? If someone's goal is health or fitness, the question is whether they're getting healthier. If, otoh, the goal is fighting ability, imo not fighter cares whether they are using tcc or not. If self defense is the goal, only a fool cares about what works.

However, if the goal is maintaining a pure tradition, then of course mixing it with other things is wrong. Personally, I don't think the founders of any of these martial arts were purists. They were innovators, and It was their students who invented a tradition.

The other negative about learning multiple systems is the belief that one masters all of them, when it's hard to say if one can be mastered. And, when something happens, it's like have several cars, you can only drive one at a time. There's no time to choose, the integrated self will act. There won't be time for any confusion. IF you ask yourself, "Should I use Yang style, Wu style, or bagua." (Answer: how did you practice to not get hit? If you did, bet they all work." If you didn't ...

[Bob]

At least, from my experience learning Wutan(g), Liu Yunqiao did not call for or attempt to integrate systems rather he wanted students to have more than a simple familiarity with other systems - he didn't require they obtain a mastery of other systems- he long recognized from his early experiences that there was no complete ultimate system - pluses and minuses for each system - however that is only my Wutan experiences - other Wutan practitioners may have something completely different and taken a path of integration