F̷a̷j̷i̷n̷ Bao Fali in Xingyiquan

[Bob]

Bob, is this method the part of the strike where the Baji guy suddenly drops/ squats down as the hand is going out?

Well, not the way I learned but maybe there are other ways to do this

Rusty pinyin but as you drop down it is like compressing a spring however the fist is hollow and upper body is fang song - then rising is driven by legs, waist, and upper body stays relaxed and tightens only at the end for a second or two - then there is relaxed contraction until you reload

Xu jin --> fa jin with chan si jin from twisting of the waist

One way to visualize this is the rebound when a trapeze artist dismounts from the trapeze by dropping into the net and you see the center of the net sink pulling on the corners and then the trapeze artist is bounced up.

At point .35 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHiRqDjTGPw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eGnuU9Zobs&t=1s



Later one learns to punch out of a stationary half horse/half bow stances without the twisting of the feet - again to can map a lot these onto the da qiang training.

Hope this makes sense???

These clips are only a snippet of the training that goes with this - one of the first exercises we learned from day one regardless of what we were training was as follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvZIxYHLzXo

Two very basic warm up exercises that were extracted from the Pigua system to help prep the Baji development. Looks easy but yet not that easy.

[twocircles13]

In this clip you can see he’s using the Transverse Abdominal muscles (TVA) to round the lumbar and tuck the sacrum, called the Bolangjin (Crashing Wave Power), and then immediately using the TVA to return the lumbar and sacrum to the original/ normal position, the movement called Fanlangjin (Returning Wave Power). These names come from the idea of when you are about knee deep in an ocean the Crashing Waves can knock you down and push you up onto the beach, but then you get caught in the Returning wave and get dragged back down the beach and get hit by another Crashing wave and the cycle repeats.

@D_Glenn, I am not taking issue with the legitimacy of the method that you describe. There are lots of methods in lots of instructional traditions. My question is about your use of anatomical reference, specifically, “Transverse Abdominal muscles (TVA).” Do you mean the "transversus abdominus" muscle?

If so, this is primarily a support muscle that helps contain the abdominal contents. When you engage it/them, they suck your belly in. While they are likely to be engaged in the drill in the video, they do not cause any of this movement.

I think, perhaps, you may be referring to the internal and external obliques, which are part of the abdominal muscle group. These twist the torso and would assist the rectus abdominus in posteriorly rotating the pelvis (tucking) and rounding the lumbar.

If you are referring to all the abdominal muscles, this an incorrect application of the label, transverse abdominal muscles.

This reminds me of something I’ve seen happen before. The instructor said, “Yao,” the student looked up the term, which was defined as “waist.” The student, looked up the waist muscles and found the Transversus Abdominus muscles. He interpolated incorrectly that the teacher meant these muscles.

The Chinese Yao is much more than that. Just like the Kua is much more that the inguinal crease. These two compose what is anatomically referred to as the Lumbo-pelvic-hip complex (LPHC). However, I have learned by sad experience that it is hazardous to communication and understanding to mix Western and Chinese anatomical and other terms. Their denotations may be similar, but the methods of identification are often very different. And, the connotations may be worlds apart.

On the other hand, if you have correctly learned a movement and understand it well. Then, if you also know Western anatomical and biomechanical terminology, and you would like to describe a movement using your experience and observation using Western anatomy, rather than a transmogrification of Chinese terms, that would likely be beneficial to the martial art and biomechanical communities.

[D_Glenn]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Yes it is the Abdominis. And they are involved in holding the Abdominal contents in. In Yin style Bagua we learn to use them in the same manner that yoga people perform Nauli Kriya - contracting only one half the abdomen inward. We, however, keep our abdomen pressed out, so that when only one side is contracting it turns our Yao (aka Dantian) to that side. We learn to lock everything to that contraction and that’s what gives us our waist power. Yes other muscles are involved in the movement of one’s Yao, but the average Joe doesn’t need to put their intention upon gaining full control over all the other muscles involved.

I’m sure you’re already aware that the Transverse Abdominis are also involved in supporting the lumbar. Along with other muscles of course. The Wuji stance is how one first trains their body to get their torso comfortably into a secondary fixed position. One doesn’t have to figure out what muscles are doing what to move their body into and out of this secondary position. But one does need to have somatic control over the two halves of the Transverse Abdominis because you have to be in control of the turning of your Dantian throughout the movement between the two positions. The muscles that support and hold the spine upright are doing it through isometric contraction, yet they also have to move and change to differing positions of the spine. It’s the isometric power that you can learn to harness to Spring from one position to the other. Like drawing a bow and releasing it. Since one should already have some somatic control over the Transverse Abdominis to Turn the Dantian (this is called Zhuanhuan) then you can also have the sense of them when you quickly spring from one position to the other (called Yaozhedie - waist folding).

So that’s why in my school of Baguazhang my Chinese teachers only talk about the Transverse Abdominis Muscles. It’s too slippery of a slope to put Intention beyond only the primary muscle that you need control over. Also note that bodywork and Tuina is a major part of Baguazhang, which requires intimate knowledge of anatomy but through touch and feel only. Like an Osteopat, Chiropractor or massage therapist. So my grand teacher was fully aware of the abdominal muscles and had their own names for them. So in this case it is just a simple matter of translating one to one.

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[D_Glenn]

Here’s a good read https://www.sensational-yoga-poses.com/transverse-abdominis-function.html

Note that in both the Zhuanhuan and YaoZhedie movements it’s important to be lifting Huiyin point/ the pelvic basin. Which is called the Mula Bandha in yoga.

[D_Glenn]

Also note that I only have a layman’s understanding of the yoga excercises. There’s exercises in Yin Style Baguazhang called the 13 Taibao. These are exercises where a person would specifically just learn to control their abdominal muscles and do stuff similar to yoga nauli kriya and agni sara, and similar to a belly dancer. Back when a martial artist could have free room and board in their teacher’s house, and practice for 16 hours a day, then the 13 Taibao exercises were something that could be practiced on its own. But since they’re always being integrated into all our movements, we don’t need to practice since we don’t have the luxury of time to train them as a solo practice. Also note that the ever increasing size of a real Dantian is because the Transverse Abdominis can grow larger/ thicker with martial training- Zhan Zhuang, Xing Zhuang and Striking.

[Doc Stier]

Although much of the analysis of body methods presented here and all of the debate regarding the finer points of same is interesting to a degree, it seems overly intellectual and unnecessary to achieving a realistic competency in any IMA style.

The basic concepts and principles upon which these arts are based already require a substantial effort to imbed in the mind and body without the additional distraction of more things to think about or attempt to feel internally during training. As such, I prefer to think less and physically feel more in my personal training regimen. I advise all of you to do likewise.

[D_Glenn]

Bob, at a Bagua seminar with Xie Peiqi and Jinbao, Kurt Wong began talking to me and doing some translating with Dr. Xie for me. Later in the seminar he showed me his Fajin but it was like the strikes around the 1:30 mark on the first video. It was impressive. Really cool and I’m forever grateful that he let me witness it. It looked like his strike went through 3 stages. The initial twist struck, then the drop, then a third and final blow. But he said his fajin was different from what I was learning. Ours is a different mechanism.

[D_Glenn]

Doc, I disagree. My grand teacher let me be on a different track then all the other students. For 3 years they let me focus solely on learning how to Fa Li. They gave me a lot of private verbal instruction that only made sense to me. There wasn’t a lot to physically teach me because I already had learned the basic mechanic from watching Jinbao and referencing his videos. It was just talking about details and key points. And a lot of encouragement to not give up on it. They suffered through the exact same daily frustration and that soon it will start coming to fruition. Our art is built around this mechanism. And I still get instructions that only make sense to me when there’s places in the Animal forms where I can use Fanlangjin right after the Bolangjin. Little things like that. The Qilin system is all Fanlangjin. My goal is to learn that some day.

[Kelley Graham]

Trust me I have explored and done everything that you have suggested. There might be some of that archived on here. But I think most of the threads about PBK were on the original Emptyflower forum.

Paul Andrews is indeed doing something extraordinary. I think there’s a thread about him as well. There’s also a mechanism in XYQ that is focused on the chest power. I would have to search for it. I don’t know any key words off the top of my head though.

Here's the oldest post with the keywords Paul Andrews. RSF contains the original David Devere Empty Flower forum in it's entirety. If you mean the stolen Empty Flower forum, I got nothing.

edit: oops. here's the link https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 3b#p394411

[D_Glenn]

Thanks,
“Using the Zhongwan solar plexus area, and not the Dantian.”
Yes that’s what I was referring to.

***
Here’s the video with Pandrews I was talking about- the hebei xyq guy, Zhang Jun starts showing them some Fanlangjin at around 7:48. It’s also called the Swallow portion of Tun and Tu.



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[Observer]

In this clip you can see he’s using the Transverse Abdominal muscles (TVA) to round the lumbar and tuck the sacrum, called the Bolangjin (Crashing Wave Power), and then immediately using the TVA to return the lumbar and sacrum to the original/ normal position, the movement called Fanlangjin (Returning Wave Power). These names come from the idea of when you are about knee deep in an ocean the Crashing Waves can knock you down and push you up onto the beach, but then you get caught in the Returning wave and get dragged back down the beach and get hit by another Crashing wave and the cycle repeats.

The performer in the video clip in the OP is from the Song family line of xingyiquan (Song Guanghua is the seated gent commenting). Songshi training with the Yin and Yang versions of Santishi and wuxing does tend to develop the movement that Devlin describes. Although it's not as clear in his video clips on Youtube, Zhao Chuanhui from the Zhao Yongchang branch of Songshi xingyiquan shows this dynamic as well.

[D_Glenn]

Thanks for post.

I was dreading having to dig through Facebook to find what school my op video clip was from.

[nicklinjm]

Very interesting post Bob, especially the mention of Sang Dan-qi as AFAIK he was the only direct student of Shang Yunxiang who left the mainland. Do you have any more details about what and who he taught?

[Wahkeen]

Interesting re: Bolangjin/Falangjin! D_Glenn, it would be very helpful to see a visual sketch of the spine positions involved, as I don't quite get my mind wrapped around the exact positions involved just by the (and so how they might map onto stuff I've been doing). Looking at the vids, the movement gets subtle for some of those guys and sometimes it's hard to distinguish it from a basic spinal wave too.

It's interesting to think about whether this originated from Bagua and mapped onto Xingyi, or the other way around, or whether it existed more widely. Then again, it is just body mechanics, so it can in a sense pop up everywhere.

[D_Glenn]

I would have to draw a sketch. In the beginning you will want to train the movements big, exaggerated, like what my teacher Jinbao is demonstrating for teaching purposes, or what Zhang Jun is showing. But after years of practice the movement gets more refined and smaller and smaller, to the point where the sacrum barely has to tuck and the center of lumbar at Mingmen point ( between (L4 and L5) is where the focus of movement is. So there would be 2 different sketches - for big and small. Refinement is what gives one the Cun Jin (inch force), versus the ordinary martial power of Chi Jin (foot force).

For the Bolangjin movement- tucking the Sacrum/ tailbone and rounding the Lumbar, think of the Dantian as a two sided drum sitting in your abdomen. There’s sand on the top of the drum. Your tailbone is like a mallet that can hit the bottom of the drum and get the sand to fly upward on the top.
There’s an upward compression happening in the Bolangjin movement. It’s much easier and safer to learn. The Fanlangjin movement requires that the person already has a strong Dantian built before you can safely do it. Which is roughly two plus years of daily Zhan Zhuang or Santishi. A Dantian will protect the vital areas deep within the abdomen. Because the Fanlangjin is pulling and stretching, or decompressing the Dantian. I tried doing it much too soon in my career and I gave myself what’s called a Cramp on the Chong Meridian. It was about 24 hours of severe pain that I couldn’t touch because it’s deep down near the spine.
So basically the difference is that these movements aren’t trying to whip your shoulders forward to add more power. They’re compressing and decompressing the Dantian to jolt the abdomen. So in the beginning, it’s counterintuitive because your Intent/ Mind is divided as one part of your body feels like it’s going in the opposite direction and away from the target that your hand is moving towards.

This was around long before Bagua was invented. Similar practices were done in Daoist Sitting meditations as this tucking and untucking is used to surge energy upward to nourish the brain. These movements can also be used to add power to a spear. The Bolangjin can help stab the spear up and out, while Fanlangjin parry’s and draws the spear back and down. So either the Daoists figured it out, or General Yue Fei figured it out.

But either way it is still a Daoist neigong practice because it can put you into a meditative state when you’re just continuously practicing your striking drills with Fa Li.
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