F̷a̷j̷i̷n̷ Bao Fali in Xingyiquan

[wayne hansen]

Breaking Wave action is big in Fu Style tai chi
It is not how it is described here
I was lucky enough to learn Parks method from my mate Bob
He trained with Parks teacher in Korea
I only fully appreciated them when i got Parks videos and books
I can’t see these methods putting out anyones back unless they have serious health problems
Thé Tien Gan teach this energy in a very advanced way
After 50 years of practice they become more profound every day

[D_Glenn]

Like everybody else on this thread, I can't see any particular movement of the lumbar spine going on in that original video? If you want a video that demonstrates that, then why not use one that shows it beyond 'so refined you can't see it' level?

I can however see some really nice horizontal rotational control of the torso going on - what we'd call Dragon Body.

Personally, I dislike seeing Xing Yi without stepping, but I guess it's like a mid way point between stepping and Zhan Zhuang, so yeah, if that floats your boat, go for it.

When it comes to "spinal waves" I dislike that term as well. Sure, the energy can move in a wave like motion through the whole body... but I don't think the human spine has evolved to be used literally like a whip. Sounds like a great way to put your back or neck out and slip a disk to me. Now, use it like a bow? That's something else.

There are so many different ways of doing things in Xing Yi because it's split into different lineages and is so damn old that of course there are loads of different ways of doing it.

Good point and thanks for being the voice of “everybody”. The tucking and Bolangjin part happens when his right hand strikes and the camera angle obscures that. But the main thing to observe is the result. It’s the same trembling of flesh that you can see in the video of Chen Yu that ParadoxTeapot linked. This is said to resemble a horse when it vibrates the flesh across its whole body to shake off flies.

You misread all of my posts above. I’m not saying that this is the whip. This is the bow. The lumbar and the thoracic spring like a bow, from one position to the other position, then return and repeat. The spring comes from the isometric nature of the Transverse Abdominal Muscles (TVA). Thanks for bringing that up though. During the first 6 months that a person practices this, they may find that the bow of the lumbar spine, doesn’t want to sync up with the bow of the thoracic spine. This is a major mental hurdle that everyone has to get past. It’s called “Getting the two bows of the spine to function as one.”

The whip, which is the name of the other body mechanic, is found in other styles of Chinese martial arts. You might say it’s a Shaolin power. I have no idea how it works. But I agree that the disc slippage etc. does seem possible but there are many people doing that method and they appear to be healthy. More people are practicing the “whip” then are practicing this Bolang,Fanlangjin Bow method. (Which is called XiongYaoZhedie in Chen Taijiquan.)

On the Xingyi without stepping. No that doesn’t float my boat, but it doesn’t sink my boat either. Which apparently it does to yours. I think you need to grow a stronger boat.

[D_Glenn]

Wait, so you’re actually saying that you don’t practice ‘standing in one place’ striking drills?
That actually would explain a lot. Your entire history of posting on EF and RSF makes a little bit more sense if that’s true.

[GrahamB]

Yes, that is like the hidden key to understanding everything I've ever said.

[Appledog]

The more I look at the video, and the more I read and reread your earlier descriptions (dg), the more I can't understand why this is supposed to be some kind of secret. Like Dr said, it is just the normal product of good training.

I would even say that tantui trains the TVA to be able to do this. Now, to have the fine control to isolate the TVA and have a kind of shaking power like shown maybe not. But, then things become application dependent. I must be missing something. Anyways if your after secret things there are far more wondrous and secret things in xingyi and related arts than this. I would almost go so far as to say this is rather low-level.

ex.

[GrahamB]

The Non Shakers and Movers in the Xing Yi world:

https://thetaichinotebook.com/2020/01/1 ... gyi-world/

[Appledog]

The Non Shakers and Movers in the Xing Yi world:

https://thetaichinotebook.com/2020/01/1 ... gyi-world/

Byron's understanding over shaking is correct, but now that it has been said, a good question is why it is taboo and what you should be doing instead.

[D_Glenn]

Appledog, I am not the one who is saying that this is a secret. The Xingyiquan community in China are the ones who keep it secreted by tradition.

This is openly demonstrated and taught by some Chen Taijiquan people.

In the lineage of Yin style Baguazhang that I study it has been openly shown and taught since 1996. It’s demonstrated in every movement, shown in all the striking drill methods we do, and all the forms. I started practicing it in 1998. I have been openly promoting it on EF since about 2006 when I realized that nobody else, besides some Chen Tjq people, were doing it.

This is something that you have to specifically and intentionally practice. It’s a good 2 plus years sidetrack that you have to undertake. “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.” A student is shown this, but for some reason or another they can’t see it, or don’t want to practice it, that’s fine. My teacher Dr. Xie had good students who couldn’t do this, and great students who did take the sidetrack and could do it. It is definitely not the result of normal CMA practice. The saying is “You have to lock the student inside the school (where they don’t have to worry about fighting anyone, or gaining power) in order to learn this.”
Our style of Baguazhang is built around this because the appearance, shape and execution of our movements are designed to have the most ideal way to get the flesh wave, generated by the jolting of the abdomen, to travel out into the strike.


.

[origami_itto]

Well the thing I've been taught is that there needs to be mobility. You can't be stuck in one position there, it's just another aspect of movement, not the be-all end all.

As far as standing still, you've got to learn how to take the step without moving your feet.

As far as shaking, it's all about how the energy of the movement disperses. If you're tensing up to stop and stop yourself from shaking, then I don't think you're doing it right.

How I'm working that is letting it hit the end of my fingers and go back through the whole body, you see the shaking when it's getting stuck. Otherwise there a number of micro-adjustments that soak up the energy without getting tense. Of course if you're hitting or pushing something then it goes into them.

[D_Glenn]

Shaking is Zhen (shocking) Jin. You can change the way the Flesh-Wave moves by relaxing or tensing muscles. Your muscles can all be completely tense before and after the Jolt/ Spring. Which will produce a Dang (Blocking/Shield) Jin. Or it can be completely relaxed- Zhen Jin. There’s all types of different Jins in between that. But don’t intentionally try to shake if you’re practicing your Zhen Jin. Just let it happen. But also don’t try to stop it. It’s actually easier to learn if you practice about halfway in between Dang and Zhen.

[GrahamB]

Ah! The step of no step! Is that like the burp of no burp?

I think the situation is really quite simple. The further and further away you get from actually hitting somebody the more and more you get into all these weird 'fa jin' things like shaking, stepping without stepping, and burping without burping.

Punching the air with massive shaking is one thing, but all that shaking seems to disappear the moment you're asked to hit a body, a pad or a heavy bag. Then, for some reason, nobody is interested in shaking.

Obviously, this means I am low level.

[origami_itto]

Ah! The step of no step! Is that like the burp of no burp?

No, it's a realization that the "stepping" of xingyi is a way to train power generation, not a requisite to generating power.
Think about it for a second. You don't have to move forward to generate the power it takes to move you forward. If you put that energy into something else, you can stay where you are.

Transforming that energy into movement and then impact and then effect in the opponent is far less efficient than applying the energy directly to the opponent, don't you think?

I think the situation is really quite simple. The further and further away you get from actually hitting somebody the more and more you get into all these weird 'fa jin' things like shaking, stepping without stepping, and burping without burping.

Yeah, I beat the crap out of my heavy bag. Knocked it over this morning.
The last one wore out in the middle.

[origami_itto]

Shaking is Zhen (shocking) Jin. You can change the way the Flesh-Wave moves by relaxing or tensing muscles. Your muscles can all be completely tense before and after the Jolt/ Spring. Which will produce a Dang (Blocking/Shield) Jin. Or it can be completely relaxed- Zhen Jin. There’s all types of different Jins in between that. But don’t intentionally try to shake if you’re practicing your Zhen Jin. Just let it happen. But also don’t try to stop it. It’s actually easier to learn if you practice about halfway in between Dang and Zhen.

I've got a bit of a different understanding of shaking and shocking jin, which are two completely different things lol.

Shaking being a way of changing directions of force to sever someone's root, shocking being a quick and overwhelming release of force.

The shaking I'm talking about is pointless, just theater, leaky power. Punch the air and stand there shaking like bruce lee or something.

[D_Glenn]

Ah okay, that is the intentional shaking that a person shouldn’t do. As I wrote above. It’s shite. The only people I see who do that are people who can’t do Bolangjin/ use their lumbar like a bow, so they’re trying to imitate people who can.

The natural occurring shaking or trembling that happens after a lumbar bow springs, will add another quality to a Zhen jin strike that helps it to penetrate into an opponent, but not necessarily make them move away or be repelled, like the Dang Jin is designed to do.

***
In that mitt punching video that Graham posted, she literally is not moving her feet when she’s punching. Both her feet are planted, aka ‘Standing in one place’ Striking drills.

But In Baguazhang the legs are 70% of the attack, so in application we always take a step, or move our legs in closer so that you get some portion of your leg colliding into the opponent’s leg at the exact same moment that the arm attack is hitting them.
So in our Baguazhang the Standing in Place drills are really just to develop the Yao Fa (Waist/ dantian methods), but that’s the most important part of Internal Power training. So you have to do both types of drills. Because we don’t plant both feet, then strike, like she’s doing to generate power

.

[G. Matthew Webb]

I’m not saying that this is the whip. This is the bow. The lumbar and the thoracic spring like a bow, from one position to the other position, then return and repeat. The spring comes from the isometric nature of the Transverse Abdominal Muscles (TVA). Thanks for bringing that up though. During the first 6 months that a person practices this, they may find that the bow of the lumbar spine, doesn’t want to sync up with the bow of the thoracic spine. This is a major mental hurdle that everyone has to get past. It’s called “Getting the two bows of the spine to function as one.”

D_Glenn, what do you mean by the "lumbar and the thoracic spring like a bow"? Do you mean that you flatten the lumbar curve by flexing the lumbar spine and flatten the thoracic hump by extending the thoracic spine in a temporal sequence? When the lumbar spine has its normal curve it has the shape of a bow when the bowstring is pulled back when viewed from the side. Using metaphorical terms like "bow" and "spring" are not clarifying to me and perhaps not to others. Sorry, if I'm a bit of literalist, but I want to understand what these metaphors refer to and not just think that I know what they refer to.

Agree with Graham that you should post a video that shows what you are taking about in a non-ambiguous way. That clip, which you have posted before, does not do that for me.

You write that "the spring comes from the isometric nature of the Transverse Abdominal Muscles (TVA)." I remain unconvinced that the TVA can do this. Is this your personal opinion or can you point to an exercise physiology paper that supports your opinion? If you know of one, please post because I would like to learn.