the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

D_Glenn wrote:

origami_itto wrote:Do you ever feel like the focus on this has lead to over emphasizing movement in the lower back?

Not at all. The movement of the lower back is a natural movement. I did focus on learning it from roughly 1998 to 2001 but I was, and still am, using that natural instinctual movement to jolt all the flesh of my abdomen to start of wave of flesh moving, which is not natural, but I have made it a new- natural. Like riding a bicycle. You can’t Not know how to ride a bicycle after you learn how to. Like I said before, I have to use ‘a thought’ to not do it when I’m striking. We call this ‘Containing the Power’, or ‘Circling the Power Back Around’, which is a part of our practice. Let me see if I can find a video clip of it.

From your posts on this thread, you made it sound like you can easily do this?

Well it's not precisely the same thing.

The pieces of the body are perhaps moving in similar ways but they are motivated differently.

The abdomen is used to coordinate the limbs, but it doesn't "issue" force. The whole body is involved in "storing" energy 蓄勁 (Xù jìn) and "releasing" force 發勁 (Fā jìn).

When we talk about "li" we're talking about the direct force a muscle is capable of exerting through contraction in isolation or in combination with other muscles.

Our "Li" is just one force among many that is present. Intelligently preserving that force and combining it with the other forces and energies at our disposal is what creates the "jin" that we express.

So "issuing" as it were, is a matter of, at a basic level, shifting the weight from one leg to another and sinking and letting that force move down to the ground, back up through the legs, THROUGH the lumbar region.

In the lumbar, we're naturally tracking the force coming up, like a flag in the breeze. It's not generating it, it's following it and not getting in the way. Moving in the same way you describe, but passively.

Since we're not using the muscles in that region to create the energy, we're able to use them to direct the energy. We get a lot more energy out of our legs than we do out of our lower back.

The fingers are connected to each other across the back and down into the waist so the energy naturally tracks those tendon paths.

By using the mind to "direct" the energy (regulate tension between antagonistic muscles to guide it to a path of least resistance) the arms express the spiral waveforms directly, preserving that energy until we release it as force.

I've got more to say about it but will save it for a blog.

As for teaching doctors, physical therapists, anatomists and other knowledgeable professionals, I have to repeat, i don't know, thousands of times, something like; "The perceptions that enable insight into body and mind, that support walking a specific kind of wisdom path, don't feel anything like how they look." In my experience, few of these smart and accomplished people can empty their cups to get this fundamental piece. I encourage them to move on.

Origami, aha, I think the difference is what’s essentially the difference between the Bones and the Flesh. I’ve learned a lot about this subject over the years. It’s spoken about a lot in Chen Taiji. I will have to see if I can find what I’ve written about it. I don’t know how much of that I posted on RSF.

Basically what I’m utilizing is Flesh power. What I think you’re describing is called Bone or Skeleton power. In Taijiquan texts they’re typically muddled together because the texts were only intended for Inner Door students, so there’s not a clear distinction between the two. But context is key. And also the confusion when you encounter the - “how can two different things be true at the same time?” Answer: they are actually Two different things. And you want to ideally train and utilize both things. Flesh and Bone are also called Mao and Dun (having both a spear and a shield). So what you describe is true and valid. I use the same thing, or similar, Bagua is a little different from Taijiquan.

Kelley Graham wrote:As for teaching doctors, physical therapists, anatomists and other knowledgeable professionals, I have to repeat, i don't know, thousands of times, something like; "The perceptions that enable insight into body and mind, that support walking a specific kind of wisdom path, don't feel anything like how they look." In my experience, few of these smart and accomplished people can empty their cups to get this fundamental piece. I encourage them to move on.

A good insight and great advice.

Kelley Graham wrote:As for teaching doctors, physical therapists, anatomists and other knowledgeable professionals, I have to repeat, i don't know, thousands of times, something like; "The perceptions that enable insight into body and mind, that support walking a specific kind of wisdom path, don't feel anything like how they look." In my experience, few of these smart and accomplished people can empty their cups to get this fundamental piece. I encourage them to move on.

I think people with no knowledge of anatomy and what not, or non-intellectuals, but they have already learned an external art, have a really hard time trying to learn these Bolang, Fanlangjin/ XiongYaoZhedie movements. We have everyone begin YSB using movements that are atypical in order to allow them every opportunity to start over and build it from the ground up and hopefully get it. But most of them cannot empty their cup. But they aren’t kicked out. Yin Fu Bagua can still make them better at fighting, even without being able to FaLi, if they choose to practice it.

D_Glenn wrote:Origami, aha, I think the difference is what’s essentially the difference between the Bones and the Flesh. I’ve learned a lot about this subject over the years. It’s spoken about a lot in Chen Taiji. I will have to see if I can find what I’ve written about it. I don’t know how much of that I posted on RSF.

Basically what I’m utilizing is Flesh power. What I think you’re describing is called Bone or Skeleton power. In Taijiquan texts they’re typically muddled together because the texts were only intended for Inner Door students, so there’s not a clear distinction between the two. But context is key. And also the confusion when you encounter the - “how can two different things be true at the same time?” Answer: they are actually Two different things. And you want to ideally train and utilize both things. Flesh and Bone are also called Mao and Dun (having both a spear and a shield). So what you describe is true and valid. I use the same thing, or similar, Bagua is a little different from Taijiquan.

I don't know that bone power is accurate, it's more properly "tendon" power. "Bone power" in taijiquan is more closely associated with "li", specifically in the classics, actually.

Basically the forms and power generation cultivate eccentric elastic explosive power.

So in application, like here, I've got a contact point and a certain amount of tension between us in the total system of my body.

I shift into my front leg and close/compress/store, he comes forward a little bit which breaks his strength. Then I shift to my rear leg and open/release upwards into his upper body. Notice as my mass moves forward, his also comes toward me, and as mine moves back, his moves away from me.



Getting into the specific anatomy does get a bit mind boggling because you're starting to talk about reversing the normal function of antagonistic muscle pairs, and in the total system you're going to have some different things happening. To accurately describe everything going on here we'd need 100 pages.

It's not that it's unknowable or indescribable, it's that it takes a lot of brain-sweat to try to wrap your mind around and for most folks, even smart folks, that's more pain than it's worth. Personally I think understanding the anatomy, at least in part, helps me find the correct internal movement.

Essentially, the kinetic energy of the movement is stored elastically and eccentrically in the muscle-tendon complex.

This is "storing" energy 蓄勁 (Xù jìn).

蓄勁 (Xù jìn) - Store power
如 (Rú) - Like / As
開弓 (Kāi gōng) - Drawing a bow

Our natural impulse is to release this stored energy quickly and completely, as when we are involved in "explosive sports".

Instead in taijiquan we want to preserve it and regulate it to cause further movement. This is the Yang style reeling silk energy. As one muscle-tendon complex releases it's antagonistic complement receives the energy, eccentrically.
運勁 (Yùn jìn) - Move Power
如 (Rú) - Like / As
抽絲 (Chōu sī) - Pulling Silk

At any time we can choose to let go of the stored energy and release it all at once, this is "releasing" force 發勁 (Fā jìn)
發勁 (Fā jìn) - Release power
如 (Rú) - Like / As
放箭 (Fàng jiàn) - Shooting an arrow

This is difficult to conceptualize, difficult to accept, difficult to practice, and requires a long period of conditioning before it's effective or safe to use with a large amount of force. You can see where I'm using the tiniest amount to huge effect where my opponent is expending large amounts of energy. He is in many cases loading the complex for me. Using large amounts of force can easily lead to injury, as well as encourage concentric contraction that works against the goal.

I could achieve the same effect with a large expenditure of muscular force directly, but that is not the point of the training.

However, utilizing eccentric contraction and negative loading is at the forefront of modern sports medicine, right along with fascia.

In a full plyometric exercise this release is accompanied by a concentric contraction to add that force to the total force applied.

If in a taijiquan context, we want more force, we can also do this, but for light work it is not necessary or advisable.

So who's gonna tell me I don't know what I'm talking about?

Me

origami_itto wrote:

It seems to me that shin bite can be an excellent integration into Taiji PH.

Origami, the word is Bone, but it’s not literally bone. Your skeleton is standing on the earth. Everything is connected to the skeleton- tendons, ligaments, muscles. Anything that involves the skeletal connection to the earth is under the category of bone. The flesh can move even if you’re standing still. The flesh can move independent from the skeletal structure.

I know exactly what you’re describing and the type of power. I’ve felt it in spades, from many different people. We lump that into the Dun (Shield) side of our practice. What I’m talking about is the Mao side (Spear). But not literally a spear or a shield, they’re just words chosen to more easily talk about the categorical differences between the two. They both contain offense and defense.

The commenters who are denying or dismissing the XiongYaoZhedie movement of flesh, are publicly declaring that they never learned the Mao side of their Internal Martial Art.

I am not denying or dismissing your practice. Because it’s the Dun side of my art.

The terminology that the ‘only Dun IMA people’ use is an issue, but I don’t care about that. Rather than try to argue the terminology I instead just try to use other words because all of the names that were originally used to describe the Mao side have been reappropriated to describe the Dun side.

.

John shin bite is the first step in the Wu style form

johnwang wrote:

origami_itto wrote:

It seems to me that shin bite can be an excellent integration into Taiji PH.

It's in parry and punch, I grabbed this last time you brought this up.

D_Glenn wrote:Origami, the word is Bone, but it’s not literally bone. Your skeleton is standing on the earth. Everything is connected to the skeleton- tendons, ligaments, muscles. Anything that involves the skeletal connection to the earth is under the category of bone. The flesh can move even if you’re standing still. The flesh can move independent from the skeletal structure.

I know exactly what you’re describing and the type of power. I’ve felt it in spades, from many different people. We lump that into the Dun (Shield) side of our practice. What I’m talking about is the Mao side (Spear). But not literally a spear or a shield, they’re just words chosen to more easily talk about the categorical differences between the two.

The commenters who are denying or dismissing the XiongYaoZhedie movement of flesh, are publicly declaring that they never learned the Mao side of their Internal Martial Art.

I am not denying or dismissing your practice. Because it’s the Dun side of my art.

The terminology that the ‘only Dun IMA people’ use is an issue, but I don’t care about that. Rather than try to argue the terminology I instead just try to use other words because all of the names that were originally used to describe the Mao side have been reappropriated to describe the Dun side.

.

Gotcha, in the taijiquan writings they just use different buckets to sort those into.
I think in fully realized practice, this "shield" would be one part and then for example where I'm trying to make sure he's not falling I would instead "issue" power to further affect him, like a Pi Quan or Beng, or even just An.

But that, I think with xingyi the way I understand it which is really an undeniable part of my understanding of power generation. The legs and waist drive the changes in the pelvis and lumbar vs it drivign itself.

At least sort of mapping the idea onto my understanding.

Doing it right is very systematic, yeah the posture checks that I always fail with my neck, but the "where there is up there down, where left is right, where forward is rear" is an important part of the circularity and not committing your weight to strikes while still recruiting it for the power.

It's all good stuff. I'm enjoying the discussion and comparison.

origami_itto wrote:It's in parry and punch, I grabbed this last time you brought this up.

If you can hold on your opponent's foot, it will be harder for him to escape out of your shin bite.

D_Glenn wrote:

Kelley Graham wrote:As for teaching doctors, physical therapists, anatomists and other knowledgeable professionals, I have to repeat, i don't know, thousands of times, something like; "The perceptions that enable insight into body and mind, that support walking a specific kind of wisdom path, don't feel anything like how they look." In my experience, few of these smart and accomplished people can empty their cups to get this fundamental piece. I encourage them to move on.

I think people with no knowledge of anatomy and what not, or non-intellectuals, but they have already learned an external art, have a really hard time trying to learn these Bolang, Fanlangjin/ XiongYaoZhedie movements. We have everyone begin YSB using movements that are atypical in order to allow them every opportunity to start over and build it from the ground up and hopefully get it. But most of them cannot empty their cup. But they aren’t kicked out. Yin Fu Bagua can still make them better at fighting, even without being able to FaLi, if they choose to practice it.

No one is kicked out. Just encouraged that maybe their time can be better spent elsewhere, as they're not going to progress and get what they think they want. I have found that being blunt and forthright about their prospects and giving them a clear choice of what needs to change in their approach to learning works well and keeps everyone happy. Note: many come to me for fajin training, few stay when i tell them, on the first day, it's a byproduct of another kind of mental cultivation. Same thing for Qi cultivation and the such.

KG, I only put Fajin in the title of this thread because that’s what the old Xingyiquan guy (Song Guangha) calls it. But clearly he’s been living under a rock because that term has lost all meaning now. Since a toddler with Boxing Gloves is now doing Fajin, to a grandma doing Taiji can do Fajin with a wave of her pinky.

My teacher Dr. Xie calls this ‘lumbar, sacrum to jolt the abdomen movement’, Fa Li (Issuing Power), but I think that term will soon be hijacked as well, so we’ll just have to make up a new word for it.

Point being that I can almost guarantee that what you, and others on this forum, call Fajin, is not the same as what is shown in all the videos I have linked on this thread. So any discussion about what people can or cannot learn your fajin, has zero relevance to me talking about what people can or cannot learn what we call Fa Li.

I hope that clears it up a little. No disrespect intended. I’m sure what you’re teaching is a valuable skill to learn. So I would like to hear more about it sometime.