Akuzawa Minoru

[Ian]

From the thread of the same title in the video section:

"No, I don’t do [qigong]. No specialized internal training. In your every day life, do you stand around? No. Your martial art has to become like this."

"forms and styles are traps. The followers who only swear by this or that school are trapped."

What do you think of this?

[qiphlow]

i think that approach, while really wonderful, doesn't work for many folks.

[C.J.Wang]

I agree with the second statement.

[ashe]

No specialized internal training. In your every day life, do you stand around? No. Your martial art has to become like this."

learning to stand is the most basic requirement.

look at how we develop as children. first you learn to roll over, then to sit, then TO STAND.

you have to follow the progression. then you can learn to walk, to run, to jump and kick and play and work and fight.

practicing standing postures is essential to learning to really use your structure. if you can't do it standing still, how are you going to do it while moving.

that's why children learn to stand first, and why we need to do the same.

[Ian]

No specialized internal training. In your every day life, do you stand around? No. Your martial art has to become like this."

learning to stand is the most basic requirement.

look at how we develop as children. first you learn to roll over, then to sit, then TO STAND.

Alright gov, steady on.

I think he's talking about his training having no requirements to stand still, holding postures and all that.

Children do not learn to stand still. Most of their development takes place in movement. Crawling - walking - running.

All three stages involve controlled falling (fall forwards, catch yourself, repeat), not controlled stance-holding.

In fact, ask a child to stand still for half and hour and see how 'natural' that is. In some countries that's a form of punishment.

that's why children learn to stand first, and why we need to do the same.

Again, children learn controlled falling, not controlled stance-holding.

But that's just what he said! Don't shoot the messenger!

[ashe]

disagree. what children learn during sitting, crawling and standing is stability.

the falling down is what happens when you lose stability.

the learning process in children is binary. 1 or 0. did i succeed? no. do not repeat that action. yes. repeat frequently.

falling down is the negative reinforcement, it's the cue that our actions were incorrect. if falling were the method we'd never learn to walk.

for the sake of clarity my definition of stability in this context is " the ability to control movement".

so stability is what we're after in all our postures. the ability to control, in infinite degrees, our own movement.

[Ian]

I did not say falling down, I said controlled falling.

Watch how kids walk and run. They tilt their entire bodies forwards, begin to 'fall', and catch themselves just before they topple over. They use their forward momentum to achieve locomotion.

As we grow up, we lose this efficiency of movement.

Controlled falling is exactly what one does in systema running (probably chi running as well). That you can use the "child-like" method to run for great distances while carrying heavy packs and without fatiguing, is indication enough that controlled falling is efficient movement.

When children learn to stand, walk, and run, they DO NOT do so by assuming a stance and holding it for long periods of time.

THAT, I think, is what Akuzawa Minoru is talking about.

I'm not saying static stance training has no benefit, but it's absolutely NOT how children learn to walk and run. They learn through constant movement.

[ors]

Hi!

I think Ian, you are right. One thing what you are not aware of, that the so called '"static stance traing" mustn't be static at all. In stance training you have to loose, loose, loose. At the end it is became a dinamic stance trainig, and that is the point. When it became dinamic, you can start do do the "moving stance training"....

Örs

[somatai]

disagree. what children learn during sitting, crawling and standing is stability.

the falling down is what happens when you lose stability.

the learning process in children is binary. 1 or 0. did i succeed? no. do not repeat that action. yes. repeat frequently.

falling down is the negative reinforcement, it's the cue that our actions were incorrect. if falling were the method we'd never learn to walk.

for the sake of clarity my definition of stability in this context is " the ability to control movement".

so stability is what we're after in all our postures. the ability to control, in infinite degrees, our own movement.

disagree....children learn by following process they do not get bent about failure and so they simply keep playing at it until they get it and then move on the the next bit.....also all locomotion is controlled falling we cannot beat gravity so we simply learn to use it....as we become adults if we stiffen up the feeling of falling becomes uncomfortable and so we get even stiffer we no longer move with gravity, but rather against it.

[Walter Joyce]

Saying that children learn just one way or just another is false. Like adults, different children have different personalities and therefore different learning methods or styles.

As for the original post, I read in the Video Clip[s post that Mr. Minoru went through a stance training phase.

I think sometimes once we have achieved a certain level of proficiency in something we tend to forget what it was that got us to where we are, and discount practices that may have been essential, or at the very least beneficial.

For me standing was very helpful in establishing the connections that Mr. Minoru discussed as a central part of internal strength, but I didn't stop there. Through long practice of jinebgong and shenfa without stepping I learned how to move from a rooted position while maintaining the connections, then I applied what I learned to circle walking. He is right in saying that if you can only stay connected while stationary you haven't completed your lessons, fighting, after all, requires movement.

The last thing that is sticking in my thoughts is that originally ba gua had no standing practice, it was added later when the teachers of the internals started allowing their students to cross train. This supports his position.

I am left to return to my original thought here, we all have different personalities and therefore different learning styles and methods. Under this line of thought it follows that some may need and benefit from standing practices, like myself, while others may be able to make and maintain the necessary connections within the body through a more mobile approach.

[Walk the Torque]

I'll go with Walter on the forgetting how you gat there thing. Also whatching my son go from all fours to crawling was a tad painful emotionally, as he was so frustrated and angry that he did not know what to do to get his arms and legs going without falling on his face. I have images of him grimacing and willing this event called crawling to happen.

Anyway; As I see it, standing practice is not necessary to gain internal skills or skills to fight well, but it really does speed up the process. Stability aside, just the sense of connectedness and what it does to your ability to deliver the required information to your body on how to move is just incredible. Moreover, I would not like to leave standing practice behind, because I believe at a certain point it is less about standing still and more about learning strong insidee movement.

I like Mr Minoru's approach though. Lots of feed back with partnered stuff, and the emphsis on movement gives it a certain quality that is appealing to me.

[qiphlow]

I'll go with Walter on the forgetting how you gat there thing. Also whatching my son go from all fours to crawling was a tad painful emotionally, as he was so frustrated and angry that he did not know what to do to get his arms and legs going without falling on his face. I have images of him grimacing and willing this event called crawling to happen.

Anyway; As I see it, standing practice is not necessary to gain internal skills or skills to fight well, but it really does speed up the process. Stability aside, just the sense of connectedness and what it does to your ability to deliver the required information to your body on how to move is just incredible. Moreover, I would not like to leave standing practice behind, because I believe at a certain point it is less about standing still and more about learning strong insidee movement.

I like Mr Minoru's approach though. Lots of feed back with partnered stuff, and the emphsis on movement gives it a certain quality that is appealing to me.

ditto.

[ashe]

Saying that children learn just one way or just another is false. Like adults, different children have different personalities and therefore different learning methods or styles.

i was speaking on a neurological level during the early stages of development.

[Sajite]

"No, I don’t do [qigong]. No specialized internal training. In your every day life, do you stand around? No. Your martial art has to become like this."

that statment could be very valid in a much more active cultural enviroment.
Nowadays quite a bunch of people in the developed countries spend more than 3/4 parts of the time they're not sleeping just sitted in a chair or a car

[Walter Joyce]

Saying that children learn just one way or just another is false. Like adults, different children have different personalities and therefore different learning methods or styles.

i was speaking on a neurological level during the early stages of development.

Thats nice, but I don't see the difference. Our personalities and methods of learning spring from the neurological systems. I stand by mt statement until you can explain to me how I might be wrong.