Wang Yan and Neutralization

[origami_itto]

So for the sake of discussion, here I'm working on the compression and uprooting part, but am releasing slowly and to be fair adding a little weight shift to get the effect. I generally don't "fa jin" against friendly players in a free format. Bob is no slouch, has been around a bit in the FMA and CMA worlds.

This was November.



This one is less obvious but cleaner IMHO.


There's different pieces and parts to it. I can pull them off independently but getting it all together in the moment is definitely still challenging.




Sigh... nobody appreciates subtlety anymore, but small unbalancings keep people from getting frustrated or defensive where big fa jins can damage pride and cause escalations that interfere with training and that my skills can't handle frankly.

Point is... progressively improving on skills. I'm still actively learning and getting better. How about you?

[Steve James]

Yeah, pushing the opponent downward is more traditional (ime) than making them fly upward. In the video with the guy in white, note how the teacher's feet rise. The student has to have been going in that direction already. Now, whether the student is actively helping or the teacher can feel the student try to resist going down as expected, can be questioned. Could be a bit of both.

[windwalker]

Resistance

One can only resist what they feel.
All resistance felt is from oneself....If speaking of taiji, using it's method of "joining" there should be no feeling of resistance...

most work on overcoming the body, not really "joining" "controlling" the center


"Wang Yongquan: Exploring the Essence of Tai Chi with Precision

Wang proposed that the center and the center of gravity must be distinguished, and force must not be applied indiscriminately.
Clarifying the difference between the center and the center of gravity in theory and practice is Wang's contribution to martial arts techniques.

The center is not fixed; it exists on the force source.
The force source is not fixed in position due to the differences in the opponent's body shape, gestures, stances, and strength, so the center will naturally not be fixed either.

The center exists within a certain range, generally on the two imaginary lines in front and behind the opponent's spine."

With those able to do this, one quickly finds out at first touch, one also understands the more force they use is also the force
they have to deal with....

[windwalker]

another explanation same concepts in use


"The necessary condition is that in the plane co-point force system, the sum of all forces should be equal to zero. If it is not zero, the object must move in the direction of the line of action of the resultant force.

When Mr. Wang Peisheng taught Taijiquan, he expounded the balance theory of “zero resultant force” many times. For example, when discussing “the four positive push hands rules and the relationship between Taijiquan and mechanics”, In the whole process of push hands martial arts, always keep your own resultant force at zero, which is balance.”

"Mr. Wang Peisheng’s idea that the resultant force is zero balance can be explained by human mechanics.
In our sports, almost all skeletal muscle movements are against gravity, so let’s first introduce three concepts related to gravity: the center of gravity of the human body, the line of gravity of the human body and the support surface of the human body.


Center of gravity of the human body: the human body is a combination of head, torso, limbs and other limbs. Each limb has its own center of gravity, which is called the “center of gravity of the limbs”. center of gravity”.

The position of the center of gravity of the human body changes with the position of the limbs. When the shoulders droop and stand together,
the center of gravity of the human body is located at the dantian."

[D_Glenn]

So for the sake of discussion, here I'm working on the compression and uprooting part, but am releasing slowly and to be fair adding a little weight shift to get the effect. I generally don't "fa jin" against friendly players in a free format. Bob is no slouch, has been around a bit in the FMA and CMA worlds.

There's different pieces and parts to it. I can pull them off independently but getting it all together in the moment is definitely still challenging.

Sigh... nobody appreciates subtlety anymore, but small unbalancings keep people from getting frustrated or defensive where big fa jins can damage pride and cause escalations that interfere with training and that my skills can't handle frankly.

Point is... progressively improving on skills. I'm still actively learning and getting better. How about you?

From the other thread, and what was figured out, I think you’re only doing Fauxjin, which is typically used in Yang Taiji.

In the Chen Fajin, there really isn’t a “big” Fajin. It’s all Cun Jin (inch force, which doesn’t really mean the distance between two targets, but that the movement of the lumbar spine and subsequent chain of events is really efficient and compact.), and it uses Zhen Jin (shocking force) which will allow it to Tou Jin (Penetrating Force) which means it damages organs or if you have a Na (seize) it will abrubtly break or maim the joint. So typically demonstrations of Chen will get a Na, skip the Fajin, and just Ti Fang and let them get away.

[origami_itto]

So for the sake of discussion, here I'm working on the compression and uprooting part, but am releasing slowly and to be fair adding a little weight shift to get the effect. I generally don't "fa jin" against friendly players in a free format. Bob is no slouch, has been around a bit in the FMA and CMA worlds.

There's different pieces and parts to it. I can pull them off independently but getting it all together in the moment is definitely still challenging.

Sigh... nobody appreciates subtlety anymore, but small unbalancings keep people from getting frustrated or defensive where big fa jins can damage pride and cause escalations that interfere with training and that my skills can't handle frankly.

Point is... progressively improving on skills. I'm still actively learning and getting better. How about you?

From the other thread, and what was figured out, I think you’re only doing Fauxjin, which is typically used in Yang Taiji.

In the Chen Fajin, there really isn’t a “big” Fajin. It’s all Cun Jin (inch force, which doesn’t really mean the distance between two targets, but that the movement of the lumbar spine and subsequent chain of events is really efficient and compact.), and it uses Zhen Jin (shocking force) which will allow it to Tou Jin (Penetrating Force) which means it damages organs or if you have a Na (seize) it will abrubtly break or maim the joint. So typically demonstrations of Chen will get a Na, skip the Fajin, and just Ti Fang and let them get away.

Well certainly we're using different lexicons of jargon.

I think the main difference between what is typically classified by us as "li" or "bone force" in my system is using the muscles to move the bones to generate momentum to apply the force of kinetic energy to something.

Jin is the elastic and gravitational potential energy and ground return force, and muscular contraction, a little. The movement is spread across the entire frame and the energy is carried along the muscle-tendon pathways directly. Rather than using our muscles to move our meat, we apply the release of stored energy directly against what we're trying to manipulate. Moving our meat is just to find the position.

https://atomictaichi.com/2023/12/07/und ... ing-force/

The yielding is the compression (or turning) that neutralizes the incoming force. Since they're ostensibly using "external" force at that point they're empty of potential to act meaningfully.

So then, neutralized, if their energy is stored it can be released, or we can release a little of our own to get the effect we want.

[D_Glenn]

Origami, there’s an older thread on here somewhere that talks about this: in Chen style there is a body quality that is created called Peng, which shares the same name as the 13 energies of Peng, etc.; but this Peng Quality is that elastic tendon force that you have just described. Having Peng is the key component in a TiFang. If a person doesn’t have Peng then they cannot possibly be able to do Ti Fang. It will just be a common throw and discernibly not a TiFang.
Xingyiquan and Baguazhang also develop Peng but TiFang is less of a factor in the tactics of the two styles. So it’s not talked about or demonstrated as much.

[windwalker]

Origami, there’s an older thread on here somewhere that talks about this: in Chen style there is a body quality that is created called Peng, which shares the same name as the 13 energies of Peng, etc.; but this Peng Quality is that elastic tendon force that you have just described. Having Peng is the key component in a TiFang. If a person doesn’t have Peng then they cannot possibly be able to do Ti Fang. It will just be a common throw and discernibly not a TiFang.
Xingyiquan and Baguazhang also develop Peng but TiFang is less of a factor in the tactics of the two styles. So it’s not talked about or demonstrated as much.

always interesting and informative posting, along with clips your own work

Do you have any clips of "you" working with some of the points you've mentioned, might help to clarify
some of what is written...

Itto wrote:

Sigh... nobody appreciates subtlety anymore, but small unbalancings keep people from getting frustrated or defensive where big fa jins can damage pride and cause escalations that interfere with training and that my skills can't handle frankly.

nice work

It is interesting, also hard to find people working on the same points..
Once, the small point of contact has been, understood, any other option, is just an option...always there

The hard part working with the small point..the kind of stuff that makes people "hop" trying to recover from it...

[johnwang]

Yeah, pushing the opponent downward is more traditional (ime) than making them fly upward.

In Taiji PH, not only people don't control their opponent's arms, people also don't control their opponent's leg/legs. You may train not to do so. But how do you prevent your opponent from doing that to you?

In Taiji PH, what if your opponent controls both of your arms and also your back leg?

image uploading site

[Steve James]

I agree with you about the legs. What do you think your opponent's counter to this should be here?

Anyway, you put your outside foot outside the opponent's. You could also step in between his legs and kao him away.

[johnwang]

I agree with you about the legs. What do you think your opponent's counter to this should be here?

Anyway, you put your outside foot outside the opponent's. You could also step in between his legs and kao him away.

Your opponent can change his stance into a bow-arrow stance. He can then use his right leg to inner hook your left rooting leg. Of course, you can use your right foot to scoop your opponent's left leg. Whoever has better leg skill will win here.

I strongly encourage people to integrate "leg skill" into Taiji PH.

[windwalker]

I strongly encourage people to integrate "leg skill" into Taiji PH.

What makes you feel its not there already ?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBNeYmzEsUA

[johnwang]

What makes you feel its not there already ?

I don't see cut, sickle hook, inner hook, outer hook, shin bite, scoop kick, sticky lift, sweep, ... ever used in Taiji PH.

You can use your right leg to hook the

1. outside of your opponent's right leg (cut).
2. inside of your opponent's right leg (sickle hook).
3. inside of your opponent's left leg (inner hook).
4. outside of your opponent's left leg (outer hook).

That's already 4 basic "leg skill" there.

sickle hook:



scoop kick:

[origami_itto]

Origami, there’s an older thread on here somewhere that talks about this: in Chen style there is a body quality that is created called Peng, which shares the same name as the 13 energies of Peng, etc.; but this Peng Quality is that elastic tendon force that you have just described. Having Peng is the key component in a TiFang. If a person doesn’t have Peng then they cannot possibly be able to do Ti Fang. It will just be a common throw and discernibly not a TiFang.
Xingyiquan and Baguazhang also develop Peng but TiFang is less of a factor in the tactics of the two styles. So it’s not talked about or demonstrated as much.

That is definitely in alignment with my understanding.

Stiff bracing gets broken or toppled, but the release of sung allows the force to be neutralized through turning as if on a ball, or through the deforming as mentioned above. The "base level" of tension that holds the body in a particular orientation is reduced to the least necessary amount to allow for maximum responsiveness. The adjustments get smaller and smaller.

I wish I could have captured this cardinal this morning, landing on an evergreen branch, dropping about a foot, then the branch caught the maximum amount of force from the initial drop and rebounded back up, settling to a point roughly halfway between the highest and lowest, then springing back again as the bird hopped to another branch. Perfect illustration of concept.

Phisogically and physics-ally, if we equate peng to elastic tendon force, then the expression of that force is F = E * d, where E is the "elastic strength" of the muscle-tendon system involved and d is the "distance" or amount of "deformation".

If we equate the discipline of Taijiquan roughly with "building a ball" that is the human body, then the "power of steel folded over and refined 1000 times" is the thickening of this ball's skin to increase the "elastic strength" and store/transmit more energy with less overt movement and less internal deformation. Punching a beach ball vs a tractor tire.

The Peng energy permeates all of the other energies, the difference is in how we use it and the specific quality we present to the incoming force. The other 7 energies describe those interactions, supporting, bouncing, disappearing, leading, pulling, dispersing, crushing, folding. The 5 control the use cases, and then the other myriad categorized jins control the character of the interaction, long and smooth, short and abrupt, the shaking, etc.

The key thing is that it's like one sheet across the whole body, it eats "Li" or straight muscular bone force because that arrangement relies on every part, every individual muscle group, being strong enough to deliver the entire amount of force. There is always something that is weaker. THIS arrangement utilizes the force available in each part altogether as if it were a single muscle. The strain of the applied force will travel to the weak spots/faults like cracks in glass.

It's so hard to really express what that means.

Itto wrote:

Sigh... nobody appreciates subtlety anymore, but small unbalancings keep people from getting frustrated or defensive where big fa jins can damage pride and cause escalations that interfere with training and that my skills can't handle frankly.

nice work

Thank you very much, I do appreciate that you see what I'm working towards here and your observations.

[windwalker]

What makes you feel its not there already ?

I don't see cut, sickle hook, inner hook, outer hook, shin bite, scoop kick, sticky lift, sweep, ... ever used in Taiji PH.

might wanna think on "why" you don't see these things used..

To think others have not tried to use them is mistaken.
In China, and Taiwan...the format can be very wide as to what is used or not..

In the parks, people often ask " friendly or not" specify the level and intent of the practice...


Even when it's said to be friendly, it may not be.