Silk Reeling Power Chansijin

[D_Glenn]

Here’s a translation I did about 9 years ago:

陈式太极拳之---胸腰折叠训练方法
胸腰折叠，是陈式太极拳锻炼要领之一。其要旨，在于强调以丹田为枢纽的躯干部位的松柔、灵活而有力的运化功能。古拳论云：打拳“紧要处全在胸中腰间运化。”而胸腰运化的特征，即表现在胸腰折叠。

　　折叠一词系借用其一往一复、一开一合的含义。胸腰折叠的实质就是指胸腰的开合、屈伸、鹦放、旋转。《太极拳表解》云：叠，有转换。”折叠者，无非是借用折扇、叠被、折叠衣物之比喻，而表述胸腰运动中的一开一合、一屈一伸、一左一右、一收一放、顺逆螺旋之变化。故拳论有云：“往复须有折叠。”反映在技击上，这种折叠劲则用于“声东击西，就左先右，造势借力”的战术之中。陈照奎老师把这种折叠劲称之谓“蛹动劲。”他常以蚕蛹，蛇、毛毛虫之类的虫蛇躯体节节贯串进退之状，来形容太极拳运动中人体胸腰运化之貌，而谓之曰“犹尤似蛇”。

　　陈照奎老师还常说：胸腰者，人体之“大本营”也。他又比喻：胸腰部位，如同棋盘上的老将、老帅，不能轻易随便移动。根据陈式太极拳宗师陈长兴公(号称“牌位)真传拳架的规矩，胸腰这一躯干部位，必须保持端正，不允许左歪右斜，前俯后仰、摇头晃肩、来回摇晃，同时，另一方面又要求它松柔、灵活，屈伸自由，旋转自如，有开有合，能吞能吐。一句话，既要中正，又要灵活。回忆我刚跟先师学拳之时，常常受到的批评是：虽然上身比较端正，胸腰却铁板一块；可是，另一方面他又常批评他的一位侄子是“水蛇腰”、“扭屁股吊腰”，胸腰活得过火了。由此可见，如何无过而又无不及地把握太极拳的胸腰运化问题确是值得我们研究的一个重要课题。

　　一、胸腰运化的生理机制

　　要弄明白胸腰运化的规律，首先要弄清人体胸腰部位的结构及其生理机制。

　　人体的胸部和腰部，是由起支柱作用的脊柱贯串其间的。脊柱构**体的中轴，成年人脊柱共26节，劲椎7节、胸椎12节、腰椎15节、一个骶骨和一个尾骨，借助椎间盘、韧带连结而成。脊柱上端托着头颅，其胸段、腰段和骶尾段，分别构成胸腔、腹腔和盆腔臂的一部分。

{Chen style taijiquan - the method of 'Folding the waist and chest' (xiong yao zhedie)
'Folding the waist and chest' (xiong yao zhedie) is one of the most important points of Chen style TJQ's practice. The important thing
is that everything depends upon the Dantian to be the hub of all movement of the body, and everything else around it is moved by/ because of it. Flexible yet strong, capable of determined movement or transforming to the situation. Old martial texts say: "To fight, it is critical that every movement is controlled by the center of the chest and waist, moving or transforming aka attacking or defending." [There is a double meaning where the whole of your body is under control by your mind, but the mind is sunk down to the dantian, or your dantian is the mind in a fight.] Even though the chest and waist moving and transforming is distinctive it may not be manifesting 'Folding (Zhedie)'.
'Folding (Zhedie)' is a single term that connects a whole sequence of movements and other more complex terminology into one single, simple word. The one word means - to open (kai) and close (he) and is implied when it's used.'Folding (Zhedie)' means to open and close, to bend and extend, to capture and release, to revolve and turn.
Taijiquan practitioners of old say "Folding is linked with 'Turning-changing' (Zhuanhuan). Zhedie is compared to a folding chinese paper or silk fan (Zheshan). The fabric is folded into pleats, and the spine and front of the chest is likened to the perfect opening and closing of a fan. Bending and stretching. Being put away or whipped open. Moving with (shun) or moving against (Ni). Spiraling (Luoxuan). It changes. [Basically Zhedie movement has opening and closing but the Zhuanhuan movement also has it's own opening and closing. A movement within another movement.]
Boxers of old say: "To go out and comeback there must be 'Zhedie'". So before one obtains skills of striking, this Zhedie Jin (Folding Power) must be understood and able to be used. "Threaten to the east, attack to the west, or attack the left, but strike with the right, or promote power borrow strength." is a common tactical concept [but...]. Teacher Chen Zhaokui said that 'Zhedie Jin' is another way to say "Yong Dong Jin" (Chrysalis/pupa Moving Power). He often said it's like a Silkworm Pupa (Canyong), snake, or caterpillar, and such, worm-like bodies that move an inch at a time, connected end to end simultaneously advancing and retreating. In TJQ the middle of the person's body can move in the same manner, and it's said that the person has the ability to move like a snake. Chen Zhaokui often said the chest and waist of the human body are the headquarters/ base camp [from which the martial military is directed.]

He also compares the chest and small of the back to being like the King moving on the chessboard and you can't just move it rashly or randomly, the movements have to be precise. According to Chen TJQ grandmaster Chen Changxing the traditional teachings say the chest and waist are together within the torso, and the torso should not crooked to the right or left, not rocking back and forth, not shaking the head or wiggling the shoulders, on the other hand it requires that the torso is relaxed and supple, nimble and agile, freely able to bend and stretch, smoothly rotate and turn, able to open and able to close, the ability to suck-in (Tun) and the ability to blow-out (Tu). The middle of the body must be both solid and strong and flexible and agile. I remember a time when teacher would criticize me for having a torso that was like a stiff iron plate, yet at the same time criticize another student for having a torso too supple and loose like a women waving and wiggling her ass. So the key is to have the chest and waist be lively but not too much. So what is important is that without practice and guidance it is hard to understand how the chest and waist are used to power movement and transform, so it's important to have experienced people work together to solve this major problem.

1. Understanding the movement of the chest and waist as a physiological mechanism.
It is important to figure out how the movement functions according to strict rules. It demands that one knows how the chest and small of the back function structurally and the physiological mechanisms of their movement. The solar plexus, ribs, chest and small of the back must work together and coordinate as they're the backbone for the movement of the spinal column being connected end to end. The spinal column is the central axis. The adult spinal column has 26 palpable nodes/ ridges - the cervical spine has 7, thoracic spine has 12 ridges, and the lumbar has 7, then the sacrum and tailbone. It moves via discs between vertebrae and ligaments and joints. The top of the spine supports the head, the thoracic section is the 'Chest' (Xiong) and the rest (lumbar, sacrum, and tailbone) is the 'waist' (yao) section. The Chest is the whole thoracic cavity, while the Waist is the whole abdominal cavity and the pelvic cavity.}

[twocircles13]

I’ve been trying to figure out for weeks why you posted this. I can detect no question, so you are ether seeking a confirmation of something you know, posting something you read, or trying to get someone to fill in the blanks. I guess. Perhaps you just want to start a conversation and compare teaching traditions passed down through members of RSF.

I have found this post odd though, since my understanding is that your training is in Baguazhang. While there is certainly winding in bagua, this seems to be something of a taijiquan explanation of of Chansijin, or perhaps it is just pop-lore without a specific origin.

The term Silk-Pulling (抽絲 Chou Si) is a process that refers to the saying 抽絲剝繭 Chōu​Sī​BāoJin (a cocoon can only be unwound one layer at a time/ a painstaking step by step process) and only with meticulous study and attention to the finer details will a result come about.

In the Internal Martial Arts this 抽絲 Chou Si process is following the rule of 'One part moves, every part moves' and 'Using the Root to move the Tip'. The Root of the arms and legs is the Dantian (abdomen, waist, Lumbar Vertebrae and Sacrum). The Dantian should be the first thing to move in every attacking or defending movement.

The result of 抽絲 Chou Si (Pulling Silk) is a power or quality of movement called 纏絲勁 ChanSiJin (Silk Thread Power).

In order to obtain Chansijin one needs to learn to use their Dantian in both of it's Methods of Movement.
The first method is called 轉換 Zhuanhuàn (Turning Changing or Transforming).

So, if you are saying when one part of the body rotates the whole body rotates, sure. I mostly agree. This is like the drivetrain of a car. However, there are times when you cannot see superficial rotation, so one cannot observe the every part of the body rotate from the outside.

This is using the muscles of the abdomen and the Muscle-Tendon connections to the rest of the body. The Dantian can turn on a horizontal plane and also a smaller degree on a vertical plane but these combined are used to turn on the diagonal. In other words it's able to turn in every direction. To learn this method of the Dantian and developing the connections to the rest of your body requires years of 抽絲 Chou Si (Pulling Silk) and always using 'One part moves, every part moves' while also trying to make every move have a type of winding, drilling, spiraling up and spiraling down. The major joints of the body should move with fluidity and circularity so that the connection is never broken. This method is learned by moving in a various speeds of movement but it's obviously not going to be connected when moving fast because the connections haven't been established. So more time should be spent using slow movements in order to train it. And test the connections by moving at faster speeds.

You’ve kind of lost me here. I don’t know what you are trying to say. I think there is a difference in training methodology.

I have learned two approaches to the dantien. One from Feng Zhiqiang rotates the dantien, sort of, The other from Hong Junsheng rotates around the dantien. In actuality, both rotate around the dantien, which is just a teaching tool. The dantien stays still.

It think I would agree that one must learn different methods of rotation. However, I have found it is easier to make the connections and allow the rotation to follow. Either way, I think we are discussing different methods.

The Second Method of the Dantian is called 胸腰折疊 XiōngYaoZhedie (Chest Waist Folding). Only by using speed can you learn this quick and very brief movement. But this can be done with fast spurts of movement while you are moving slow to learn the First Method.

I am familiar with these terms, but it seems like our training methods are different.

This method can be looked at as moving the whole Dantian up and down on it's vertical axis. Which is controlled by moving the Lumbar and Sacrum to roll the Tailbone under to move the Dantian upward. Then using the lumbar and sacrum to pull the Tailbone back, which will drop the Dantian Down. When the Dantian is moving upward the Chest and ribcage should concave in order to bring the Diaphragm down. When the Dantian moves down, the chest and Ribcage should expand and raise the diaphragm back up. This is likened to a Chinese Accordion which is a small octagonal shape that is squeezed and pulled from both ends towards it's center to make sound. This method is learned by using big obvious movement at first. But over time the movement is refined and reaches the point where it's not really noticeable to outside observers.

I mainly use this to neutralize. For which case, you do not want the chest energy coming down and the waist coming up. That creates a hole through which an opponent can collapse your whole structure.

These Two methods should ideally be learned at the same time as they're two parts of the same whole. The First Method is using soft tissues to move the skeleton. While the Second Method is using the skeleton to move soft tissues. One's Chansijin cannot really be complete without having these two methods intertwined. You can't make thread out of a single strand of silk. You need two strands to wind together into a thread.

Very poetic, There’s more to it, but, yes, you need these parts.

Always practice 'One part moves, every part moves' and the metaphorical Thread of Silk that runs through your body can be thickened and made stronger until you will reach a point where you no longer have to move in a spiraling winding fluid manner because the thread has become like a Steel Cable (鋼絲 Gāng​sī). This cable is made of steel threads/ wires. It has a flexible springy quality (彈簧 Tán​huáng) and it can bend a lot but always springs back to it's original shape. You no longer need to follow rules like 'Using the Root to move the Tip' because you can, for instance, have your arm swinging before the Dantian, but they will always sync up in harmony at the moment of contact with the opponent. The Dantian Methods will always be there because you have made your Chansijin like a steel spring. Like a guitar string.

Steel Cable Power (彈簧鋼絲勁 Tán​huángGāng​sījin) can bend without breaking and bounce back. It is flexible and strong in any position it's put in. Once you have this quality developed you can make strong bends in the sections of your body, or move them in any order (tip before root, middle before the tip etc.) and still manifest the strength and connections of the Six Harmonies (六合 Liù Hé), at any moment in a fight.

Metaphorically, this is correct and the words are correct, but I am not convinced we would be talking about the same training method. You have emphasis on certain things that are more product than production.

[D_Glenn]

The point is to share what I’ve been taught and what I know, having ingrained this into my body over the last 27 years.
To really get to the Gangsijin quality of one’s body you need to learn both the FaLi mechanism of the lumbar and the rotation of the waist. They both should be what moves first. Then link the movement of the arms to that. Here’s a clip I filmed in 2011. You can see the FaLi and the rotation working in harmony.


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[D_Glenn]

Another thing I should mention is that what you typically see in Baguazhang is the Zhen Trigram Dragon system. In Yin style Baguazhang we first learn the Lion, which is Qian trigram where the 3 solid lines represent everything moving together. When I practice our Lion forms slow it looks like Taijiquan. It has a lot of similar movements. The Lion establishes the threads, transforms them into steel, and then when we practice other Trigram systems, the steel thread is still inside. We can be “Broken, yet not Broken” meaning that we don’t have to move according to the 3 solid lines. We can move our arms independently from the waist and have everything sync up at the end, to still hit with the full power of our waist.

[twocircles13]

The point is to share what I’ve been taught and what I know, having ingrained this into my body over the last 27 years.
To really get to the Gangsijin quality of one’s body you need to learn both the FaLi mechanism of the lumbar and the rotation of the waist. They both should be what moves first. Then link the movement of the arms to that. Here’s a clip I filmed in 2011. You can see the FaLi and the rotation working in harmony.

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OK, thanks for sharing.

[GrahamB]

I can see two rival views of the dantien going on here

Is it...

1) a still point around which you rotate your body.

2) a part of your body that rotates, pulling the limbs around.

[wayne hansen]

Yes me thinks there is a lot of fantasy going on

[D_Glenn]

In my school we typically use the word 腰 Yao (waist/ lower back/ middle or basically the whole area of our lower half of the torso), instead of saying Dantian. So we learn to use the whole lower half of our torso to give movement and power to the shoulders and arms. The arms can be thought of as being like the hands of a clock, while the 腰 Yao is the motor and the gears of the clock.
The 腰 Yao should be constantly winding and unwinding as you are going through your movements. This movement should be separate from the turning of the hips and pelvis. It also shouldn’t be twisting your lumbar vertebrae very far side to side.

[Bao]

"a part of your body that rotates"

The dantian represents the center of the body. If it rotates as a separate entity, the body won't have any center, every movement will be unstable, unbalanced and weak.

Understanding the center of the body is important because it's from there you organize all of the body's movement, as well as the body's structure while moving. Everyone professional dancer understands this. To move with ease, coordinated and control your body aesthetically, you need to have a strong center.

Oh, how about belly dancing? Well, if you look at them they hardly move at all when they engage the belly, the limbs become weak, they lack strength. The whole of their movement is in their center, no strength is expressed anywhere else.

You just can't organize your body's outer movements or coordinate the limbs in a meaningful manner if the dantian is moving separately. This is not a matter of view or about "philosophy" but about simple physics, how our bodies are built and how they function.

[GrahamB]

If the daintien is a thing in your body that can rotate, BUT if its rotation is pulling the limbs around then is it really separate? This would be different to “normal” movement.

And if the view is that the dantien is not rotating and is the centre around which the body rotates… isn’t anatomically speaking the spine the centre of the body around which things rotate?

[Trick]

Science seem to think that the earths inner core the center of the earth body has its own spin so not in sync with the outer surface earth spin ?
I’m not into science at all, but isn’t this difference in spin what enable the existence of the magnetosphere that shields us ?
Not saying the human body necessarily work like this but somebodies seem to do ?

[Bao]

If the daintien is a thing in your body that can rotate, BUT if its rotation is pulling the limbs around then is it really separate? This would be different to “normal” movement.

But then it's not moving or rotating separately from the rest of the body, it's still the center that leads the other movement, right?

What I am opposed to is the separation of dantian from the rest of the body.

And if the view is that the dantien is not rotating and is the centre around which the body rotates… isn’t anatomically speaking the spine the centre of the body around which things rotate?

Sure, that's a way to look at it. IDK, but maybe it's better to speak about center of the mass? Consider that the body is also made of organs that are mostly at the from of the body. If you consider the weight and mass, the center of the body should be somewhere inside of the belly?

[GrahamB]

If the daintien is a thing in your body that can rotate, BUT if its rotation is pulling the limbs around then is it really separate? This would be different to “normal” movement.

But then it's not moving or rotating separately from the rest of the body, it's still the center that leads the other movement, right?

What I am opposed to is the separation of dantian from the rest of the body.

Right. But I don't think the people who talk about a rotating dantien are talking about it rotating separately to the body like a belly dancer. There would be no point to that. They are talking about it having a rotational movement of its own, separate to the spine, but that it is connected to the limbs and head.

And if the view is that the dantien is not rotating and is the centre around which the body rotates… isn’t anatomically speaking the spine the centre of the body around which things rotate?

Sure, that's a way to look at it. IDK, but maybe it's better to speak about center of the mass? Consider that the body is also made of organs that are mostly at the from of the body. If you consider the weight and mass, the center of the body should be somewhere inside of the belly?

Yes - there's the centre of gravity point that correlates to the dantien idea. Hara in Aikido.

[Trick]

Hara would be the whole stomach area, while Tanden would be the point otherwise called dantian

[Bao]

Agreed @ Graham

Hara would be the whole stomach area, while Tanden would be the point otherwise called dantian

This is the problem with IMA, different people mean different things with Dantian. Dantian is either meant as the true/original dantian as in old Daoist tradition, which is just a little spot inside of the belly. Some mean the inside of the belly, and others mean the whole belly area, sometimes with the kua included.

In Xinyi Liuhe, some people speak about the lower dantian as three distinct layers or balls, the "inner", "middle" and "Outer" dantian. This is a good way to avoid confusion, to separate the meanings and specify what is meant. The inner lower dantian is the absolute center of the body's movements. The middle and outer layers can move around the center. The outer Dantian can be conditioned.