Yang family

[Steve James]

Well, cai and lieh are both applied using the hands. Both use na, but nothing says that na isn't or can't be included/complemented with something else (like da/hit or shuai/thrown down). In fact, that's sometimes the point of the 'na' is to control so that something else can be applied.

Afa idea of not hurting the opponent; that's very high level. It's definitely a better perspective. But, ti da shuai and na can all injure a person. Sure, there are degrees. You don't have to thrown someone on their head, or break their arm, or punch them full force in the face while practicing.

I agree that intent has to be there, which gets back to ting and dong.

[origami_itto]

I think with Taijiquan it's maybe a mistake to map things so directly.

It contains "all the things" but they are built by combining the fundamental 8 gates and 5 steps. It's not about static assignments, but dynamically changing relationships. It's not just cai or lieh or cai and lieh, but it's cai and lieh and advance or watch left, or watch left AND advance, it's all contextual and a confluence of qualities.

So while they say things like "meet ward off with pull down" "if pull down breaks your ward off use elbow stroke or shoulder stroke" they've got to be met with correct timing and intention, yes the whole ting and dong.

Ultimately we're just wanking here, right, trying to figure out how to develop a common dialog for describing experience after the fact in absence of the ability to exchange direct experience.

When we are we doing the RSF retreat?

[Steve James]

Ultimately we're just yanking there.

[D_Glenn]

I'd say there is a difference between qinna meaning a particular system of techniques associated with a particular art or style and the concept of na, seizing, as applied in general, and that seizing can range from benign to completely destructive.

Control holds are na but they might not even cause pain.

That’s called a Qin.
If a Qin causes something to break, then it’s a QinNa

[origami_itto]

Like I said that is a divergence from common usage across CMA so might just be something unique to your own line of instruction.

[Trick]

As usually DG want it to be the hardcore SB movie stuff.
Qinna- I think should be something as -‘capture-hold’

[origami_itto]

As usually DG want it to be the hardcore SB movie stuff.
Qinna- I think should be something as -‘capture-hold’

I don't speak Chinese, but I read a lot of books and had a couple good teachers and have some great translation software.

This is one of my favorite books on the subject, Yang Jwing Ming's Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na: Instructors Manual for All Martial Art Styles
He dives deep into the principles that drive Qinna as a particular art and system, a ton of specific techniques, and some great conditioning exercises, though I am a little bothered by his "branch breaking" finger training.

If you've got his sword book, a lot of the jibengong is the same, frankly. Wrist and finger strength.

The characters in the name itself are 擒拿, which translated by google is "catch, capture, arrest", independently "capture" and "take"

MDBG gives the folowing:

擒 - qín - to capture
拿 - ná - to hold / to seize / to catch / to apprehend / to take / (used in the same way as 把: to mark the following noun as a direct object)

In a Taijiquan context, I'm looking at ways to turn their committed grab into a qinna. If they are holding on to my wrist, then I can use my greater leverage to apply force to accomplish the bone displacing and tendon separating using their own tension. It's easier to demonstrate than to do, and in push hands two people trying not to do it to each other may not look like much since we abandon as it's neutralized, and some of the big responses as they sense and avoid the danger instinctually are where the bad technique would be applied and are a big reason why we go slow.

As always, though, we are approaching by way of applying as little force and speed as possible. In an absolute perfect application it's like they're stuck in cement with a bulldozer approaching, they can see it coming, they have all the time in the world to respond, they have all the knowledge and skill they need to respond correctly, but they cannot do anything to avoid it.

Or conversely they had no idea it was coming until it is over.

The Taijiquan way is to be precise in the application of force. We might have great LI available but we prefer to not use it and harness QI where possible to create Jin.

[Steve James]

In a Taijiquan context, I'm looking at ways to turn their committed grab into a qinna. If they are holding on to my wrist,

If they're holding your wrists, they're already making a mistake. Then again, it's very rare ime for males to try to grab wrists. But, anyway, if you're doing the form correctly, to break any wrist grab, just do almost any form. That means without using a lot of strength or struggling.

拿 - ná - to hold / to seize / to catch / to apprehend / to take

Yeah, there are several words in English that na can be associated with. That list doesn't even cover that many (grip, grasp, clutch, clamp, ...). It is an idea. It doesn't require hands -because legs can be used, or legs and torso. All wrestling (and bjj) holds are examples of na. The famous traditional UK/US wrestling style is called 'catch.'

[D_Glenn]

Like I said that is a divergence from common usage across CMA so might just be something unique to your own line of instruction.

All I am saying is, that what you are describing as Na, is not at all wrong. But that Na, especially in the Ti Da Shuai Na context, can encompass a lot more techniques and outcomes. Just think about it. Mull it over in your mind for a few days.

Tuina is the same character. Pushing and Grasping. Pressure points are what are being grasped.

But pressing points is not limited to just using your hands.

.

[origami_itto]

In a Taijiquan context, I'm looking at ways to turn their committed grab into a qinna. If they are holding on to my wrist,

If they're holding your wrists, they're already making a mistake. Then again, it's very rare ime for males to try to grab wrists. But, anyway, if you're doing the form correctly, to break any wrist grab, just do almost any form. That means without using a lot of strength or struggling.

It can be a dominance display or start of escalation. Men will grab women's wrist to keep them from getting away from an argument. Drunks and aggressive types might do the same in the wild.

I know my strategy is to get control of their hands as quickly and effectively as possible. I don't like surprises. But you do that with fingers and loose grips so you maintain an alive connection that can respond.

Most folks train for grip strength if they're trying to hold you, but really you want to be able to take the strength out of their body, not fight it at the point of contact.

Sometimes in push hands they DO try to grab your wrists. One dude in San Antonio does that crap, grabs wrist and keeps your right arm out away from the body to spoil your leverage, but you use that large frame to turn his thumb up and can apply needle to sea bottom.

All I am saying is, that what you are describing as Na, is not at all wrong. But that Na, especially in the Ti Da Shuai Na context, can encompass a lot more techniques and outcomes. Just think about it. Mull it over in your mind for a few days.

Okay, great, I'll do that, and you do the same, and when you're done, tell me what I missed, because I acknowledged that sealing can take more contexts. Your stance seems to be that NA only applies when it is an absolutely DESTRUCTIVE outcome

That’s called a Qin.
If a Qin causes something to break, then it’s a QinNa

and that's simply inaccurate.

Qinna is a particular study, discipline, art, specialty, whatever. Na is seizing. Results may vary.

[D_Glenn]

Yes. That is correct. Qinna are always lumped together because the actions are so intertwined. And the outcome is is almost always a Na. But there is a subtle difference between the two. There’s a reason that it’s not Ti Da Shuai Qinna, but it very well could be, and in the majority of cases it is. But you’re right. Na is not typically destructive because there’s a martial story about how Na, is like grasping and holding a small bird in your hand. It’s bones are fragile. And with a slight squeeze you could easily crush it. A criminal will crush it, but a virtuous person will let it go.
I’m not arguing with you. Peace brother

[origami_itto]

Naw not arguing, just discussing. People have a hard time telling the difference. I am aware sometimes I come off like a know-it-all asshole, don't know what to do about it lol.

When you get to the nitty gritty of the terms of art as applied within a lineage it can get a little hairy.

[everything]

at the "taijiquan level", the technical parsing is probably not so important. if you have the yi->qi->jin, then you can do something "interesting". if someone doesn't "believe", dismisses, doesn't have it, etc etc., the technical mechanism is probably extremely important. in the video i posted, the one guy very subtly uses his arm to straighten the other guy's arm. so subtle the guy probably didn't notice (he's trying to control a ball at the same time), and so subtle non-MAist onlookers would never "see" it. if we do ph as a sort of judo or jiu-jitsu, that subtlety seems like a great idea. don't let the "na" be detected. but for "taijiquan interest", this is pretty boring stuff.