Taiji form training speed

[johnwang]

If we train Taiji form and follow the following guidelines:

- The end of move 1 is the beginning of move 2.
- A move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale.

Adults usually take between 12–20 breaths per minute. If we use 12 breaths per minute, that's 12 inhales and 12 exhales. So, a normal person can do 24 Taiji moves per minute. 108 Taiji moves will take 108 / 24 = 4.5 minutes.

How can anybody be able to do 108 Taiji form longer than 4.5 minutes? Your thought?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324409

[origami_itto]

So this is too fast, this form should take 8 minutes and it's 1/3 the length of the 108 form.


My breath does its own thing, what I'm working on is moving the energy through the body properly.

[johnwang]

My breath does its own thing, ...

May be that's the difference. In my Chang Taiji system "a move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale" is a MUST followed guideline.

[BruceP]

Your thought?

Exhale into posture, inhale through transition, exhale into posture, inhale through transition...or vice versa depending on what kind of work is being done

Just timed myself at my normal pace when working the qigong of form. It's six to 7 breaths (inhale-exhale) from posture to posture per minute. I've never timed form because it's almost always different each time.

[Trick]

The long form generally takes about 20min to complete in a relaxed but focused manner it’s designed to calm the breath.
Calm breath makes for further proper relaxed but focused body and mind.
The calmer the breath the sharper the mind and senses.

“ The best (and most relaxed) fighters have incredibly calm breathing. They’re able to breathe slow even while dancing around the ring, even while blocking and slipping punches. That allows them to save their air for those sudden bursts of energy when they throw punches. If you’re a beginner: you probably won’t be able to breathe slow while on defense, at least not for a while.

”

“
The biggest breathing tip is to understand that fast breathing only means faster exhale. Fast breathing DOES NOT MEAN faster air cycle. So many beginners get tired quickly when they move fast because they’re still using slow breathing technique except only doing it faster. Breathing faster (fast inhale, faster exhale) will only make you out of breath, hyperventilate, and tire easily.
The goal of fast breathing is still to breathe SLOWER by inhaling SLOWLY and exhaling QUICKLY. I probably confused most of you just now. *Johnny, are you crazy? How do I breathe slower while exhaling faster?!*”




https://expertboxing.com/breathing-tech ... r-fighting

[origami_itto]

My breath does its own thing, ...

May be that's the difference. In my Chang Taiji system "a move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale" is a MUST followed guideline.

That's one difference.
The breath follows the movement on its own, my body causes cavities to open and close through the movement that works my breath like a bellows without independent effort. That way I'm not wasting energy or introducing tension through breathing.

If I need to issue force, then I exhale, but issuing force and mobilizing jin are different. The form is about mobilizing the Jin

[Bao]

In my Chang Taiji system "a move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale" is a MUST followed guideline.

The breath follows the movement on its own, my body causes cavities to open and close through the movement that works my breath like a bellows without independent effort.

Exactly. The opening and closing of the body controls both the movements and the breath. How many breaths, or if it's in or out, depends on the opening and closing of the specific movement. So the correct thing to do is to focus on the body mechanics and the internal body state while letting the breath follow the movements naturally.

[Steve James]

Two topics; form speed and breathing. If you do any form fast, the breathing will have to match; and the same is true if you do any form slowly.

Not everyone learns a particular breathing pattern for their form. Fwiw, CMC's style in NY definitely did, not that all CMC students practice it. They call it "reverse breathing." You might say that they consider their form a breathing exercise or breath cultivation. However, outside the form, the point is that the breath should be natural.

Yeah, the breath has to follow the movement. But, in general, just remember to breathe, when really means to exhale. I.e., don't hold your breath, and inhalation will happen by itself.

[RobP3]

If we train Taiji form and follow the following guidelines:

- The end of move 1 is the beginning of move 2.
- A move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale.

Adults usually take between 12–20 breaths per minute. If we use 12 breaths per minute, that's 12 inhales and 12 exhales. So, a normal person can do 24 Taiji moves per minute. 108 Taiji moves will take 108 / 24 = 4.5 minutes.

How can anybody be able to do 108 Taiji form longer than 4.5 minutes? Your thought?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324409

1. Breathe slower
2. Some moves can have inhale and exhale - eg single whip
3. The movement follows the breathing

[origami_itto]

Two topics; form speed and breathing. If you do any form fast, the breathing will have to match; and the same is true if you do any form slowly.

This is true of untrained breath.

Not everyone learns a particular breathing pattern for their form. Fwiw, CMC's style in NY definitely did, not that all CMC students practice it. They call it "reverse breathing." You might say that they consider their form a breathing exercise or breath cultivation. However, outside the form, the point is that the breath should be natural.

The best instruction I've gotten is to not bother the breathing. Let it go. We do breath work in Qigong and then in the form it's as I described, the movements push and pull the breath on their own.

Reverse breathing as I've been taught it involves the abdomen contracting on the inhalation and expanding on the exhalation. This is what we do when issuing power at the mid level. It stabilizes the core.

The next level is turtle breathing, where the abdomen doesn't move visibly at all.

Both of these help create the space inside the body for the body to move the breath. When that is achieved, then you can start talking about matching breath intentionally and working on power delivery.

It's a big topic with different phases and purposes and contexts.

Yeah, the breath has to follow the movement. But, in general, just remember to breathe, when really means to exhale. I.e., don't hold your breath, and inhalation will happen by itself.

In Chois Xingyi we throw ten beng Chuan on the heavy bag in one breath.

[windwalker]

If we train Taiji form and follow the following guidelines:

- The end of move 1 is the beginning of move 2.
- A move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale.

Adults usually take between 12–20 breaths per minute. If we use 12 breaths per minute, that's 12 inhales and 12 exhales. So, a normal person can do 24 Taiji moves per minute. 108 Taiji moves will take 108 / 24 = 4.5 minutes.

How can anybody be able to do 108 Taiji form longer than 4.5 minutes? Your thought?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324409

depends on the point of practice

The normal respiratory rate for healthy adults is between 12–20 breaths per minute. At this breathing rate, the carbon dioxide exits the lungs at the same rate that the body produces it. Breathing rates of below 12 or above 20 can mean a disruption in the breathing processes.

It doesn't mention heart rate

Used to run 3 to 5 mil. a day while in the military, before the military ran cross country in high school. In training Tibetan white crane, we would typically run a mile before sitting for 20 minutes in a ma bu "horse stance" before beginning our practice sessions..the training focused on fighting...

at the time my resting pulse rate was in the low 50s....
could mean there was something wrong in some cases, in this case it was "efficiency " due to the training....One way of attaining it..

Why road work is important for boxers and other activities .....also training "rhythm" of breath's taken to action..
either trained to achieve certain outcome as with some qi gong methods, or untrained allowing the body to find its natural way with other methods.


Now no longer running,

Due the work "taiji" still maintain a resting heart rate in the mid 60s,,,,tends to slow more, unintentionally during the work.... Kind of quietness in the work..

Seems to be some thinking that fast practice translates into fast movements....I'd say as Steve, mentioned its more about the transitions, maintaining what ever principles or theory that one follows in their practice.

Interesting enough in Korea training plum flower mantis, The Teacher use to have us hold the breath while doing a complete set "form “ at speed... Mantis, movements done in sets / beats , combinations of movements combined as one movement.

In taiji we talk of breathing with the whole body....able to pull and push the "air" through the hands and feet... the whole body can be made to expend as a whole or at specific points directed by the mind...

When directed with a movement in use, it feels like one is simply blowing the "air" through the other person....

[BruceP]

When I was first learned Yang's forms, the work was focused on binding and stretching without thinking about breath. After a year or so of practicing and really understanding 'breathwork' in the qigong sets (9 Temple Qigong/Six Harmonies, Five Animal Frolics, Horse Stance), form was done with breath, becoming its own qigong (as mentioned in my first post). After a few years, I was told to focus on how the breathing and movement follow and lead each other as they interact in the stretching and binding, coordinated with Six Harmonies.

When I started learning Wu style, the main focus of the form was the qigong/breathwork and Six Harmonies (lots of standing) and Nine Palace. After about a year, I was told to forget the breath and focus on smooth, even pace in the form. It was almost completely opposite of the progression of the Yang's tjq.

I practice forms maybe a few times a week to keep it fresh these days, but practice Five Animal Frolics every day.

[johnwang]

coordinated with Six Harmonies.

You can't train 6 harmonies without coordinate your body with breathing.

If you change the guideline from

- A move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale.

into

- inhale during compress and exhale during release and use 1 complete breath (inhale and exhale) to map into each and every Taiji moves.

You can only double the Taiji training time from 4.5 minutes to 9 minutes.

For example, a brush knee can be inhale (compress) followed with exhale (release). I just don't know how one can do his brush knee with 1 and 1/2 breath, or even 2 breaths.

Can you throw a punch with exhale and in the middle of the punch, you change into inhale?

[RobP3]

coordinated with Six Harmonies.

You can't train 6 harmonies without coordinate your body with breathing.

If you change the guideline from

- A move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale.

into

- inhale during compress and exhale during release and use 1 complete breath (inhale and exhale) to map into each and every Taiji moves.

You can only double the Taiji training time from 4.5 minutes to 9 minutes.

For example, a brush knee can be inhale (compress) followed with exhale (release). I just don't know how one can do his brush knee with 1 and 1/2 breath, or even 2 breaths.

Hold the ball, raise the rear arm, inhale
Step forward, brush and push, exhale

[johnwang]

Hold the ball, raise the rear arm, inhale
Step forward, brush and push, exhale

If each and every Taiji move is "1 inhale + 1 exhale", 9 minutes should be the maximum 108 moves Taiji form speed.