Internal Strength - how?

[Interloper]

If you never get locked thrown or hit how can you learn to avoid it?

By conditioning your body structure and generation of internal structure and power so that when someone comes to grab, enter, hit, lock or throw you, they find they cannot enter to do so. They bounce off you, or you receive their connection and reverse their energy back into them.

Letting yourself get locked in order to learn how to reverse it is low-level, IMO. I'd rather skip right to the level where as soon as a person tries to touch you their own body and movement becomes disrupted and controlled by you.

In good taiji, people learn rising power and sinking power. These two jins, combined with a solid ground path and the skill of "relocating" one's center/body mass at will (through "winding"), are the first steps to attaining the ability to be unlockable, unthrowable, etc. and able to control an opponent on contact.

[johnwang]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I train to NOT get thrown, NOT get locked and NOT get hit. That's the ultimate point of internal power.

摔跤諺語精解

要想摔人先學挨摔...

Before you lean how to throw others, 1st you will need to learn how to be thrown...

There is a reason for this. If you have not been

- taken down by "knee seizing"
- pushed and flying in the air like a bird,
- knocked back by Chi ball and vibrate like a fish.

then you won’t have motivation and faith to train that skill.

attaining the ability to be unlockable, unthrowable, etc. and able to control an opponent on contact.

We all try to reach to that level. It will be our dream and goal that someday we will be able to "one touch to kill", "walk on water", or "fly in the galaxy".

[Interloper]

John,

I have had all of those things and more done to me, and I can say that while they were "educational," they were not what taught me the body method or instilled motivation to learn. I had other reasons and motivations to train in MAs, IMAs in particular. There are some things that need to be felt -- the connectedness internally when someone takes control of your center, for instance -- in order to learn them, but that is not the same thing as "needing" to be thrown, hit, kicked or locked in order to train your body for the internal power that can repel and control those attacks.

To "reach that level" at which you can do a fairly good job of preventing or, if desired, reversing locks, throws, and other attacks can be attained after maybe 5-6 years of training, if taught right and if trained right. It's not a magical process or a mystery; it's a very specific way of conditioning and training the body. Unfortunately, it seems to be lost amid the thousands of teachers and schools that lack such knowledge.

[C.J.Wang]

I do believe that being on the receiving end of a technique can be beneficial in learning how to reproduce it. However, the result largely depends on whether the person on the giving end is earnestly trying to impart knowledge or just beating the receiver for fun. I also agree with Interloper that it is unneccesary to feel the full power of a technique in order to learn it well - as long as the detailed body mechanics are well-explained through a mild version of the same move.

[johnwang]

I don't know about you guys but if someone want to teach me "Qi ball", the 1st question that I'll ask is "Try it on me." There are so many skill that make sense in theory but make no sense in reality. Take the Zimen death touch training for example. In theory if you can train in your sleep then you can add 8 extra hours into your training. The reality is, "Can you truely train your skill when you sleep?" I had believed in so many things without seeing first, I refuse to repeat that kind experience for the rest of my life.

[TaoJoannes]

I've been thinking about this long and hard, and I think the answer depends on the aspect that you're talking about.

For example, simply hitting a heavy bag and trying to be as relaxed as possible when doing it, instead of trying to hit it as hard as possible, will lead to hitting it extremely hard, if you're doing it right and working on your relaxation and letting the structure do the work. That's a good way to develop "internal strength" with regard to striking.

For shuai type applications, form practice is the fastest way, IMO.

[middleway]

To "reach that level" at which you can do a fairly good job of preventing or, if desired, reversing locks, throws, and other attacks can be attained after maybe 5-6 years of training, if taught right and if trained right. It's not a magical process or a mystery; it's a very specific way of conditioning and training the body. Unfortunately, it seems to be lost amid the thousands of teachers and schools that lack such knowledge.

I dont think that was what we were discussing ... feeling in order to learn how to counter ....Countering is one aspect of martial skill, but isnt at all dependant on feeling the move you will counter to its full conclusion .... most moves or attacks can be halted or changed well before they reach their conclusion.

The reason i enjoy 'feeling' methods applied directly to me is so that i can understand the power generation, quality of force, and force direction within certain methods and then train to replicate that ability with form, nei gung, whatever it may be. Without having felt Pi Chuan applied on me ... without having felt Beng Chuan applied on me ... I really dont think i would have intellectually been able to just figure out what the teacher was trying to explain ....this is not a flaw in the teacher ... but simply a far more clear explanation ... This is pi chuan 'whack' .... 'ohhhhhhhh i understand!'

This is just my view. If people cannot see the merit of feeling methods directly applied to them ... then fair enough.

Regards

Chris

[Interloper]

Chris,
Didn't say it's of no use to feel methods -- just of no use to feel the end product. When your body is being blasted across the room, all you're feeling is the pain, power and impact, not the "method" for how those were generated.

I've had some pretty bad injuries, some requiring medical and dental surgery, thanks to having some of that stuff applied to me. The person applying them, though not intending to do harm, was just unaware of how much power was being produced. And none of it actually taught me how to do them; it was the slow, methodical feeling of internal mechanisms demonstrated to me --- not blasted through me --- that helped to transmit the method to me so I could learn it.

[xingyijuan]

Well, the teacher that rips you arm off to demonstrate a arm lock is an idiot and should never be called a teacher! I hope that guy's insurance duly payed for the dental care Interloper, 'cause that really sucks.

But what I was referring to was not to that extreme. A good master will apply the technique without causing injury. How else can he be called "master"? To me, at least, when my teacher is showing me a arm wrap for example, him doing it to me will feed me lots of info; angles, where to grab, how to wrap, where pressure should be put, etc. I trust my teacher enough to know that he will not go full power, even if he does it almost full speed at times. Same goes for punching, there are some subtilities that I will not get when the initial verbal explanation occurs. I hope it clears my thoughts. I do not condole a teacher going full out on his student.

[middleway]

Well, the teacher that rips you arm off to demonstrate a arm lock is an idiot and should never be called a teacher! I hope that guy's insurance duly payed for the dental care Interloper, 'cause that really sucks.

But what I was referring to was not to that extreme. A good master will apply the technique without causing injury. How else can he be called "master"? To me, at least, when my teacher is showing me a arm wrap for example, him doing it to me will feed me lots of info; angles, where to grab, how to wrap, where pressure should be put, etc. I trust my teacher enough to know that he will not go full power, even if he does it almost full speed at times. Same goes for punching, there are some subtilities that I will not get when the initial verbal explanation occurs. I hope it clears my thoughts. I do not condole a teacher going full out on his student.

QFT ...

Sorry to hear about the way you were treated Interloper ... thats sort of behavior not what i am discussing.

Cheers
Chris

[Interloper]

I get what you're both referring to. Thanks. And to clarify what I was saying, it was never that person's intention to cause injury; they simply didn't know how much power they had, and were a bit careless and casual about what they were doing. Sometimes this stuff is so intense that it is difficult to gauge the degree of impact and effect, even when they're not going all-out, it is having on a live partner. We practice minimizing movement and fine tuning it so we can actually be aware of what we're delivering and control it, but there are points in the process of learning how to do that where "fine control" doesn't quite exist yet.

[Walk the Torque]

This is just my view.

Chris

I disagree

[Walk the Torque]

Just remembered, I wrote an article about this awhile back. Took the vid links out ages ago but you get the idea.



TESTING



In a garden at the back of a Kensington flat in London, a teacher does a funny little dance . Hopping, dipping and turning, then ends with a rather comical gesture, as one foot is raised and twisted out, and both arms wiggle into position, leaving him looking like a character from a Chinese opera. He turns his head towards us and says "and this type of movement will help you defend yourself against four people".



Trying to hold back our giggles and expressions of bemusement, we asked him to explain. "OK" he replies, pointing to a few members of the group. "you four attack me"! So using our five to fifteen years of martial arts experience we set about our task. As we rushed toward him he continued to do his funny little dance. Twisting and winding his limbs and smiling his mischievous smile, as he dodged, slapped, tripped, kicked and threw us around, then ended up in the exact same position.



This was amongst my first introductions to Bagua and any request of explanation was met with a similar response. You see my first Bagua teacher was big on experience. He felt that unless you experienced a technique, manifestation of power or fighting strategy, you never really knew it. Once I asked him about entry and attack. He said "are you ready?" then proceeded to apply the principle of ' make a noise in the east, attack from the west ' (a principle from Sun Tzu's Art of War). The result was that my attention was completely misdirected so that I didnít even see the strike that landed on my jaw.





Subsequent teachers I have had in the internal martial arts have given very precise explanations of chi gung, nei gung exercises, form work or fighting principles, but have always backed them up with getting me to feel what was meant, either by physically moving me through an exercise or applying a technique on me so I gained experiential understanding of the lesson being taught. What ever the method, great effort was taken to transmit the ìfeeling.î





This is one of the true skills of a good teacher of internal martial arts. To be able to impart the necessary sensations as a foundation to build internal power and technique. Solid theory, similes, and the like are extremely helpful; however, 'kinaesthetic communication' can save a great deal of time in imparting internal skills.



In the internal arts this kinaesthetic communication or transmission can be a powerful and almost essential tool in the development of the so called 'soft jins' or internal force. Traditionally a teacher will apply his internal force directly into the student's body in the form of a push, strike, throw etc, in order for the student to feel the exact quality of the force. In this way the student can better recognise the same quality in their endeavours of reproducing it.



A skilled teacher can apply different types of Jin at varying rates of intensity and timing, or furthermore can break down the force into its constituent parts and components. In this manner the student can learn in great depth about how each and every part of the body or different mind sets can effect the production of force. This gives the student the opportunity to examine and refine each component and, as it were, 'layer' one on top of the other. For instance, one weeks work might be spent learning how to apply the correct alignment to a punch or throw. When this is mastered, the following week could be dedicated to compression and release of the body. After that we could work on the effects of spiral forces, and so on.



Testing





One method of jin training I have found to be of immense value is that of 'Testing'. Testing postures or movements is a practice in martial arts where one person will take up a posture and have a partner push against that part of the body from which they wish to apply strength or power. In the case of a punch for instance, one person would stand in a punching posture and have their partner push against the fist (click here). An elbow strike would be practiced pushing against the elbow (click here) etc. In this way we can test the alignment, timing, intent and so on of the posture/movement we are working on.



In the initial stages of development, when your partner pushes against you the object is not so much to resist, but more to feel the effects of your partners force and use it to repel them so that they bounce away from you. In this way we learn to develop a spring like rebound force using our partner as the initial source of energy. It should also be stated that the 'test' is not so much one of strength, but more so the 'quality' of the strength. By quality I mean is it the gross muscular force that comes from a strong body or is it a more subtle type of force? Does it feel like a test of superior strength, or does your partner spring away from you with effortless ease on your part? (click here)



When we first succeed in producing this rebound force it begins to open up a whole new world in terms of power generation. We start to understand that what we are in fact doing is channelling and oscillating the pressures provided by our partner through our body and bouncing them back. Once this realization has been achieved we can start on the work of generating these pressures internally without the assistance of our partner. The more skilled we become in generating and conducting these pressures, the stronger and more subtle our internal force becomes. We become aware that we can conduct these forces in a number of ways. We can manifest them in an explosive manner or in a wavelike manner, fast and shocking or slow and hidden. We can issue our internal force in pulses or spirals; we can even learn to draw the momentum from our opponentís body so that they have less control over their movements than they would wish.



One of the advantages of developing internal power with posture testing is that it can be executed at any speed and intensity. In the initial stages we start slowly allowing us time to learn to perform the correct internal movements. As we get better and have stabilized our skill, we can move in faster and stronger waves - preparing us for strikes, kicks, throws etc. This process gives us the chance to develop the smoothest action and timing we need to pull these skills off in a more intense situation. Just like learning to play a musical instrument, we first need to practice scales slowly and deliberately to make the actions smooth and unconscious, and then we can play a tune and express ourselves without having to think about what we are doing.



At my school I place great importance on testing not only because it give us direct feedback as to our skill level, but also because learning to generate internal power can be very dangerous to both you and your partner. If this type of force is issued in a reckless and uncontrolled manner it can cause serious and irreversible damage to the body. With the practice of testing we can learn how to control internal force so that we have a safe and fun environment in which develop our skill.

[lars]

Nice article!
Thanks!

[GrahamB]

Ian,

Does this:



Illustrate well the Systema punch you are talking about? (back on page 3, before the curious debate about whether being hit by your teacher was a good thing or not)

Question - it seems that it's necessary to stand 'side on' to do this punch - both this guy and the guy in the video before both stand side on. What's that all about?