Internal Strength - how?

[Ian]

Ian, i dont think its that easy. Just because your mind knows something, doesnt mean that the body can replicate it just by putting 50% of the work.

I think you misunderstand me.

My point is, you absolutely cannot strike like your teachers if you don't feel those strikes firsthand.

50% comes from your own hard work, 50% comes from feeling it (ok these are ballpark figures, but IMO feeling the strike is not just about giving you a small push in the right direction, as you said. It's a huge piece of the puzzle).

[Bao]

My point is, you absolutely cannot strike like your teachers if you don't feel those strikes firsthand.

50% comes from your own hard work, 50% comes from feeling it (ok these are ballpark figures, but IMO feeling the strike is not just about giving you a small push in the right direction, as you said. It's a huge piece of the puzzle).

Agree. And that means that if you do not have a teacher who use his style to strike hard, you will not learn how to use your style to strike hard. You also need guidance, someone who can point out all your flaws and the mistakes you do while you try to copy what you felt.

Finding a teacher who can really strike and is willing to demonstrate and teach his skill is very important.

[johnwang]

getting thrown by newBs are hazardous to one's health.

Because newBs don't know how to complete a throw and they can only throw people 1/2 way. If you want to hurt your opponent then you can pretend that you are a newBs so you won't have to take the responsibility of your opponent's injury.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

i sort of disagree with the whole having to be struck thing to learn how to strike.

correct striking is garnered through correct structure and force issuance.

back straight, use of posterior chain, alignment of skeletal strutcutre etc.

as a human, you cannot gauge force other than :"that was not strong / or that was strong"
So, all you actually learn is that you have been hit and it either hurt or it did not.
being struck is not a viable learning method for how to strike, there is too much going on that cannot be transposed to method.

This is where attribute development is extremely important and methods to help correct structure, breathing to help increase force expelling as well as all other factors included strength development, footwork, ranging and so on.

[Bao]

i sort of disagree with the whole having to be struck thing to learn how to strike.

correct striking is garnered through correct structure and force issuance.

back straight, use of posterior chain, alignment of skeletal strutcutre etc.
.

Most TJQ practitioners can learn and use correct structure when practicing form. How come so few know how to strike hard?

[C.J.Wang]

There's a saying in CMA that says "the student who gets beat on by the master the most usually turns out to be the best later on."

Speaking from personal experience, I also believe that actually feeling the energy first-hand is crucial in learning how to reproduce it.

[Interloper]

What Ian and others said. It's no surprise that so many "grandmasters" do not demontrate on outsiders at seminars, at least not more than once per person, and never in slow motion. Too much risk of the individual figuring out and "stealing" a method.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

i sort of disagree with the whole having to be struck thing to learn how to strike.

correct striking is garnered through correct structure and force issuance.

back straight, use of posterior chain, alignment of skeletal strutcutre etc.
.

Most TJQ practitioners can learn and use correct structure when practicing form. How come so few know how to strike hard?

I'm going to not make too much of a blanket statement, but it is my view that Tai Chi is for the most part not trained as a fighting art except in very small circles and for the most part is is taught as health restorative or transformative work.

So, the actual lack of fighting, sparring or intentful attack and defense negates the martial value of what is being trained by "most" tai chi practitioners.

[Bao]

i sort of disagree with the whole having to be struck thing to learn how to strike.

correct striking is garnered through correct structure and force issuance.

back straight, use of posterior chain, alignment of skeletal strutcutre etc.
.

Most TJQ practitioners can learn and use correct structure when practicing form. How come so few know how to strike hard?

I'm going to not make too much of a blanket statement, but it is my view that Tai Chi is for the most part not trained as a fighting art except in very small circles and for the most part is is taught as health restorative or transformative work.

So, the actual lack of fighting, sparring or intentful attack and defense negates the martial value of what is being trained by "most" tai chi practitioners.

And? So according to you, you need or do not need to practice striking?

[kreese]

You can definitely tell the difference between different kinds of power. Good teachers will "feed" you jin. This is a very traditional way of teaching. When doing PH with your partner, for example, you provide feedback in terms of what you feel.

Sure, you can learn to play a piece of music by reading sheet music, but listening to someone else playing it allows you to get it very quickly as well as pick up on a lot of subtleties not spelled out by the written form.

[dragontigerpalm]

i sort of disagree with the whole having to be struck thing to learn how to strike.

correct striking is garnered through correct structure and force issuance.

back straight, use of posterior chain, alignment of skeletal strutcutre etc.
.

Most TJQ practitioners can learn and use correct structure when practicing form. How come so few know how to strike hard?

I don't believe that one has to be hit to learn how to hit. Just as one doesn't have to be stabbed to learn to stab or shot to learn to shoot. One does have to train and practice a particular skill to become proficient. Even understanding the mechanics and having proper structure and alignment is not enough if one doesn't train through practice. If one wants to hit hard one has to hit the bag repeatedly and apply the same focus to make adjustments as one applies to doing forms and exercises.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

And? So according to you, you need or do not need to practice striking?

If you are going to learn to strike, you need to practice striking of course. I had assumed that was self evident.

first structure and shape. - (a form)

then with force feedback with a device - (a bag)

then force feedback with motion - (moving with mitts/pads)

then patterned drills with partner - (moving with a friend)

then free sparring with all methods drawn out from the beginning. - (sparring with courtesy right up to competition fighting as far as intensity goes.)

that's generally the pathway to learning to properly strike.

[Interloper]

Darth,

We're talking about feeling the internal mechanations a skilled IMArtist uses to effect structure and power. It can't be learned by just observing what a person is doing outwardly, because all you see is the effect of what he is doing, not the cause and source. Feeling it from the person, connecting to his body, allows you to get a sense of what he is doing under the surface.

A pregnant woman can feel her baby kicking inside her, but the person standing next to her, unless he puts his hand on her belly, has no way to feel the "nuance" of what is happening even if he can see a slight movement on the surface when the baby kicks.

When you have your hand on the belly, you feel the internal movements in far greater nuance than just looking at the surface. And even then, it is not the full message since you can't feel exactly what the pregnant woman is feeling. But it is enough of a hint to figure out some things. Of course, unlike IMA you might not be able to go out and practice getting pregnant yourself to learn fully what is going on, but my point is that some things need to be felt because they can't be conveyed by visuals and verbiage alone. Another reason why IMA vids don't have much value.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

yes. my teacher used to have me place my hands on his chest and back in different places when demonstrating different issuance methods.
however, striking us was out of the question.

we did feel his body and how it moved in order to contribute to partial understanding of the whole workings.

this is not the same as allowing yourself to be hit for the sake of being hit.
I hope that clears it up a little.

[mixjourneyman]

this is not the same as allowing yourself to be hit for the sake of being hit.
I hope that clears it up a little.

My teacher hits me all the time. Is he trying to teach me something, or is he just a sadist?