the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

"Ian does this illustrate well the Systema punch you are talking about?"

NO.

This is good example of why I wish beginners wouldn't post clips of themselves.

"it seems that it's necessary to stand 'side on' to do this punch"

Not necessary. Perhaps easier to feel it, but personally I don't stand one way more than the other.

Ian wrote:"it seems that it's necessary to stand 'side on' to do this punch"

Not necessary. Perhaps easier to feel it, but personally I don't stand one way more than the other.

I wondered about the side on thing too. My guess is that there's something related to silk reeling going on in that sideways punch (in the good systema guys, not this beginner). When the right hand is dropped relaxedly in the fashion they do it in that punch, it naturally moves in a counterclockwise spiral and pulls open the right flank, which is basically the opening part of a silk reeling motion. So my idea is that they do whole body movement after all, but they hide it in relaxation. Also, an instructor whose seminar I attended recently mentioned Mikhail Ryabko is pretty big on vertical circles (vertical dantian rotation??) these days. Interesting stuff.

My 2 peneth on the standing sideways thing, is that it enables him to keep what you might call a "natural plane of movement" in the arm. He (and by that I mean both clips, regardless of difference between expert and beginner) seems to be swinging the arm in what you might call a "natural plane of movement".

Like if you just keep your arms relaxed and turn vigerously from side to side. Your arms swing in a natural plane. You don't need to utilise the big muscles like the bicep and tricep much. That make sense? That punch seems to be making that same type of swing, meaning you can keep the arm very relaxed and 'heavy' when you do it. Why that makes it penetrate more than a more 'muscular' punch I'm not exactly sure. Maybe it's just the way things are? 'Soft' power penetrates more?

Standing side-on makes it easy to keep that natural plane of movement, but I can see how that could be extrapolated (with the correct body movement) to keep the same type of energy going in strikes at all sorts of different angles. (Thought: Is that why Systema punches have that kind of 'goofy' look about them? i.e. that's not meant in a negative way - they just don't look like what we think of as typical 'martial art' punches) My guess would be standing side-on to the person is a good way to start off with the idea.

Does any of that sound feasible?

Iskendar: re: vertical circle and Mikhail:

Sadly I don't speak Russian or Greek, so can't tell exactly what point he's making here. But M is using a swing (vertical circle) in a natural plane of movement for his arm pivoting on the elbow in this clip, rather nicely too.



Punching like swinging a hammer - nice. In the vertical circle you can let the weight of the body 'fall' into the punch nicely too, even if it appears to be only the arm doing the work. (The more mass you have the better, for that - Thought: Add the XY stepping and you're getting close to a Pi Chuan...). Do we have any cunning linguists who can translate his key points?

More Mikhail.

Interesting to note that he stands at the side of the guy, 90 degrees to him almost every time.

The interesting thing about that video is you can see how the boxers punches dont transfer force into the opponent. They scrape the surface somewhat. Also checkout the wrist of mikhail when he is punching the big dude in Yellow. And then the wrist of the boxer ... a gap in the power there too. Then checkout mikhails body as he hits...

The keys to why he hits so hard are all in that video. I agree with what your saying Graham about the line he uses too ... that natural rotation of the shoulder joint with minumum obstruction from the arms big muscles...

as well as this sort of hit you also see vladimir using a whipping sort of power that you never see mikhail using.... maybe he got this from his other teacher ' uncle pete' who he describes in early interviews.



ok the guy taking the hits is pretty melodramatic ... but its an interesting movement none the less.



cheers
Chris

middleway wrote:The keys to why he hits so hard are all in that video. I agree with what your saying Graham about the line he uses too ... that natural rotation of the shoulder joint with minumum obstruction from the arms big muscles...

as well as this sort of hit you also see vladimir using a whipping sort of power that you never see mikhail using.... maybe he got this from his other teacher ' uncle pete' who he describes in early interviews.

OMG! I just realised - Mikhail is Hebei style Systema - Vlad is Shanxi! Now it's all so clear!

middleway wrote:The interesting thing about that video is you can see how the boxers punches dont transfer force into the opponent. They scrape the surface somewhat. Also checkout the wrist of mikhail when he is punching the big dude in Yellow. And then the wrist of the boxer ... a gap in the power there too. Then checkout mikhails body as he hits...

The keys to why he hits so hard are all in that video. I agree with what your saying Graham about the line he uses too ... that natural rotation of the shoulder joint with minumum obstruction from the arms big muscles...

as well as this sort of hit you also see vladimir using a whipping sort of power that you never see mikhail using.... maybe he got this from his other teacher ' uncle pete' who he describes in early interviews.

The seminar teacher I was talking about (Jan Bloem) said that Vladimir focuses on horizontal circles (which is why he moves around so much) and that this is the old Ryabko style. Apparently Mikhail tightened up his style over the years, focusing on the vertical circle resulting in a more compact way of moving. Also, Vladimir's whipping strikes is something you see a lot in the Kadochnikov people as well, maybe it's influenced by them.

Perhaps they also stand to the side so as to let the receiver deal with the strike without feeling confronted by the striker. It's just you and the pain.

You IMA guys! Stop trying to make everything so confusing!

If you stand to the side, you have a bend in your elbow. The energy rebounds and leaves through your forearm, instead of rebounding back into your brain.

It allows you to feel how to throw your arm without using your body.

It's less intimidating if you're at your opponent's side rather than his front; it makes your work easier.

Re: what Jan Bloem said, well he's entitled to his own opinions, but he started training Systema in 04 so take what he says about what Mikhail did 'before' with a grain of salt. And please don't mistake this as a slight at him because I'm sure he's very skilled.

Re: the clip of the guy punching a pillar... please try to ignore that. There is, for example, nothing in systema that says you can't punch with your whole body. And yes, whole body punches are trained.

so ian,

Where do you think Vlads Whip like strikes come from ... they dont appear to be from Ryabko and Vlad has mentioned another teacher in some interviews. Just interested in your thoughts.... not that where it comes from really matters ...

Cheers
Chris

Chris,

I know what you're talking about, but I have no idea

Ian wrote:Re: what Jan Bloem said, well he's entitled to his own opinions, but he started training Systema in 04 so take what he says about what Mikhail did 'before' with a grain of salt.

He's mainly a Ryabko student, so I suspect he was echoing his teacher on that (though he seemed a fairly critical guy, no mindless party drone). I'm perfectly aware that doesn't mean that it's true Hey, I'm a CMA practitioner, I know all about politics, lineage wars, propaganda and blatant lies

Ian wrote:And please don't mistake this as a slight at him because I'm sure he's very skilled.

He's the first Systema teacher I've met, and I was impressed. Nice guy too, and good at teaching.

Ian wrote:You IMA guys! Stop trying to make everything so confusing!

If you stand to the side, you have a bend in your elbow. The energy rebounds and leaves through your forearm, instead of rebounding back into your brain.

I have no idea what that means. Talk about IMA guys being confusing!

Stopping the energy "rebounding back into your brain"? What on earth do you mean? Are you saying that if you punch somebody standing in front of you the energy rebounds back "into you brain"?

Sorry Graham,

I was just trying to use MA terms to talk about Newton's third law (...equal and opposite reaction). Probably not a good idea in retrospect.

If you punch with a straight, tensed arm, the force will transfer back along your arm and jolt your brain. No good for anyone.

If you decouple by bending 90 degrees at the elbow, the force will transfer along your forearm, but it won't transfer up to your shoulder, neck, and head as much.

Obviously if you're free of tension you can punch any which way you like. Standing to one side and punching with a bent arm is an easy way to grasp this concept.

A good way to test this is to punch your open palm (so that you end up in a kind of 'fist in hand kung fu greeting').

Watch yourself in the mirror to see if your head moves at all.