Dai Xin Yi Quan and Xing Yi Quan (why the difference?)

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Hey guy's,

I was sitting at home last night thinking to myself about the 2 possible histories surrounding the forming of Xing Yi Quan. First being accepted by the Hebei Xing Yi Quan camp, Li Laoneng was the founder, he learnt directly from Dai Longbang, so making him the founder. Secondly from the Dai Shi Liu He Xin Yi Quan camp, Li Laoneng was taught by Guo Weihan, Guo being Dai Long Bang's 2nd wife's nephew. And lastly Che Xing Yi Quan, coming from Taigu, they believe that Che Yi Zhai was taught from Dai Wenxiong (Dai Longbang's 2nd son) and also Li Laoneng.

So my question and this is by no means in any shape or form a troll, is why is there such a huge difference between Dai Shi Liu He Xin Yi Quan and say for example Hebei Xing Yi Quan? As has been discussed by Jarek and others before, Xing Yi Quan shares some of the same powers, but they are manifested differently.

I will list a few things which I can think off, off the top of my head.

Dai Xin Yi Quan = shen fa (dun hou shi as the foundation) bu fa (yi zi bu, walking the character one in "hu bu" aka gong bu) and bang fa (shoulder methods, 5 shoulders). Then comes the weaponry, which is completely different (P.S, I will only list weapons that I know exist in my branch of Dai as I know other schools have a more elaborate curriculum). San gun (3 stick), ermei ci, niu ko san dao and dian xue jue. P.P.S, the last weapon has a certain air of mystery around it, every time I try to look into it, I get a roundabout answer, basically all I can tell it is a short stick used to attack the pressure points.

Another thing I would like to do is to also list movements which are nearly identical in Dai and Hebei Xing Yi Quan, maybe I could post some photo's, but at the moment I can't think of when I can do this. Movements which come to mind are, Dai Xin Yi Quan's "she xing" and Xing Yi Quan's "tuo xing". Note they are not 100% identical, but from seeing them it is very, very clear to see where the root is of the technique.

Jon (aka Dai Zhi Qiang)

[Felipe Bidó]

Someone told me a while ago that some research had shown that Dai Xinyi and Hebei Xinyi could share a common root, instead of one coming from the other.

Notice how both styles share similarities with Xinyiliuhe.

I'd say more, but I'd let that someone bring the matter to light, when he sees it fit.

Similar movements?. Dragon... Dai Xinyi's monkey is very similar to a movement in the Monkey form in Li Zhengban's line (I got very surprised the first time I saw Dai's Monkey), and tiger... and the 'Tiao' movement is the same in the three styles.

AND...before someone starts, when I say "movement" I'm not talking only external appearance (Some would say: Duh, a Tiger looks similar in all styles). I also talk about the timing, and intention.

I'll write more later...

[krisbowen]

This is going to get interesting!!!

[fuga]

I am looking forward to more on this as well. I am especially interested in hearing more about similar movements.

-pete

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Someone told me a while ago that some research had shown that Dai Xinyi and Hebei Xinyi could share a common root, instead of one coming from the other.

Notice how both styles share similarities with Xinyiliuhe.

I'd say more, but I'd let that someone bring the matter to light, when he sees it fit.

Similar movements?. Dragon... Dai Xinyi's monkey is very similar to a movement in the Monkey form in Li Zhengban's line (I got very surprised the first time I saw Dai's Monkey), and tiger... and the 'Tiao' movement is the same in the three styles.

AND...before someone starts, when I say "movement" I'm not talking only external appearance (Some would say: Duh, a Tiger looks similar in all styles). I also talk about the timing, and intention.

I'll write more later...

I would have to agree that all 3 styles share a lot of similarities (Xinyiliuhequan, Dai Shi Liu He Xin Yi Quan and Xing Yi Quan), but I would have to say would be partly true because of Xinyiliuhequan being the root of all 3.

If you take the Xinyilihequan (Mai Zhuangtu) Si Ba (4 strikes) 1. Heng Quan 2. Tiao Ling 3. Ying Zhuo 4. Tong Tian Pa (plus it has additional movements such as, hou shu dun, chun pi, da pi, ba wang gui shen (totally don't know how to spell that?), wan si ba, song ba, (when you stand straight up).

You then compare this Si Ba with Dai Xin Yi Quan's and the sequence is pretty much the same, apart from the extra moves I mentioned above are omitted. Mei lin Shu Tou (beautiful women combs her hair) , An Xiong Zhang (palm presses chest) Ow Shi Heng Quan (cross body horizontal fist) Yow Zi Ru Lin (sparrow hawk flies in the forest) Tiao Ling (not too sure of the translation ) Tui Bu Ying Zuo (step backward eagle swoops) Zhan Shou Pau (cutting hand cannon?) Qing Pin Dian Shui (don't know how to spell this either, something like grasshopper/water?), Tong Tian Pau (heaven opening cannon)

Now going onto the difference between the actual movements of Dai and XYLHQ. XYLHQ favours the "chang san bu" or 3 long stance, due to the measurement between the front heel and the rear toe. This stance is long and deep and you are turned roughly (90 degrees). This very closely resembles "gong bu" in Bei Shaolin Quan. As for Dai Xin Yi Quan, the "hu bu" or their version of gong bu, the measurement is 1 1/2 feet from the front heel to the toe of the rear foot. Additionally the hips are square due to the fact that every movement must have the torso in the correct position so the "dan tian" can rotate freely. Dan tian rotation is also possible with the body slightly turned and is required in certain movements (beng quan, etc) as you need to use a additional twisting force to the expansion.

As for power generation they are very different, I would say the Henan style uses a much harder approach, but this also varies between different schools. Some (not all) movements, require you to use the waist to swing out the force and also sometimes uses momentum, such as dropping the hands from a higher position onto the target. Movements like (hu bai wey-tigers tail, lung xing guo hen-dragon shape wrapping body, etc), use these forces.

The principles mentioned above are not used by Dai Xin Yi Quan and also go contrary to certain principles, such as not lifting the hands above the eyebrows and keeping the elbows down. All power generation is dependent on skill achieved through dan tian methods (dan tian gong). The force delivery emphasised is rou jin (soft power), though Dai Xin Yi Quan is considered, rou/gang (soft hard).

From talking to my own teacher (Yan Long Chang) he believes that the present shape of Dai XIn Yi Quan is due to much modification to the original Henan XYLHQ (as taught to Dai Longbang from Li Zheng), Tang Lang Quan (from Jin Shikui) and also previously Dai clan had their own art (Dai Jia Quan?), which consisted of (san quan=tzuan/guo/jian or wu xing quan, san gun=3 sticks).

As for what Li Zheng passed onto Dai Long Bang, it is highly probable, Si Ba (4 strikes) and Shi Da Xing (10 animals=dragon, tiger, snake, monkey, horse, eagle, chicken, sparrowhawk, swallow and bear).

For me the question that is nagging at me is, where did the "squatting monkey" come from? I heard one story that Dai Long Bang's father (?) learnt it from a Taoist monk (not too keen on this story) and one other possibility is that he learnt this from Li Zheng and further refined it.

XYLHQ also has internal methods, called "zong jie jin" (correct my spelling Jarek if you read this). These methods are not so talked about, but I am lucky I learnt these back from when I used to practice XYLHQ (though I don't practice them any more as I personally think the Dai methods are better).

The XYLHQ nei gong I got taught were, 1. ba dun si ba (si ba performed sitting on a bench) and 2. wu mo nei xin (forgot the name, means massaging the 5 internal organs).

I have a picture somewhere of Mai Guishen (Mai Zhuangtu's grandson) performing something which looks quite a lot like, yi zi bu (walking the character one) from Dai Xin Yi Quan, but just re-looking at it, it resembles something I just got taught in Qi Xian, called bang bu (not too sure what it means),

You raise your knee very high to your chest (squatting in the contraction stage), both hands are on the raised knee and you step forward into a bow stance and both hands go to dan tian. I think in XYLHQ you strike your dan tian, but in Dai this is not needed.

More soon

Jon.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Now moving onto the difference between Dai Xin Yi Quan and Xing Yi Quan

1. Bang Fa=shoulder striking methods (I never really seen any methods in Xing Yi Quan which train this), now I am not talking about applications, people can make up what they like from the basic movements (that's cool), but I am talking about specific training methods, forms, etc.

2. Dan Tian Gong (no, before you start, I am not saying that Xing Yi Quan has no dan tian or internal methods), but what I want to know is why is there no "dun hou shi" squatting monkey and no "shu/zhan" (contraction and expansion) at least nowhere like Dai's (Jarek mentioned he met with some Xing Yi expert who showed clear dan tian rotation. Would love to see this) What I am talking about is the rolling of the dan tian on a vertical sphere during storage and release.

Che Xing Yi Quan (talking about Xin Yi Dao camp), believe that "dun hou shi", etc were always in their system. Since now Xin Yi Dao is composed of Che Xing Yi Quan and also Dai Xin Yi Quan (coming from Wang Yin Hai), I would like to seek out a independent source (other Che Xing Yi Quan lines) to possibly confirm this. Also the tablet erected in 1925 is not enough hard evidence to prove that Che Yi Zhai learnt from Dai Wenxiong, more research needs to be conducted regarding this and many other things.

3. San ti shi (3 body posture) as to whom created this and why, there are many possibilities. As some of you know Dai Xin Yi Quan use "hu bu" aka Tiger stance, which is in appearance a forward weighted posture like other "gong bu", when it is fact weighted 50/50. There are a couple of techniques which use a more back weighted posture (similar to san ti shi), but are by no means emphasised. Jarek has mentioned one of the reasons why Dai favours the, bow stance over a back weighted stance, is due to dan tian rotating freely in this manner. So this brings to me the question if there is dan tian rotation in Xing Yi Quan, how is this possible in san ti shi?

The general Dai Xin Yi Quan practitioners believe why there is such a big difference between Dai and and it's sibling, Xing Yi Quan, is due to the fact that Guo Weihan changed Dai and also omitted out the most important training methods (shen fa, bu fa, bang fa). This was put down to Guo was not allowed to pass the art in it's entirety, due to the fact that Li Laoneng was a outsider, but due to Li being very sincere, decided to give him something or merit.

Now I am going to stay neutral on this matter and have only repeated some oral stories, which have been spoken to me and also some articles I have read. I would like for everyone who is interested to post their take on it.

Jon.

[xingyijuan]

This is freaking interesting. What I don't get though is why people use the past to glamor themselves and the style they represent. DXYQ, XYLHQ and XYQ share a common root and are very well established styles. Do the past history entanglements really THAT important? Can't we just enjoy the different stories? Please guys, keep them coming!

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

This is freaking interesting. What I don't get though is why people use the past to glamor themselves and the style they represent. DXYQ, XYLHQ and XYQ share a common root and are very well established styles. Do the past history entanglements really THAT important? Can't we just enjoy the different stories? Please guys, keep them coming!

The main purpose of this thread is not to say any art is better, but to see the differences and similarities between the two.

Personally I have never seen or done much, nei gong while I was doing Hebei Xing Yi Quan, not that was a bad thing as I found I developed internal power with san ti shi and just doing the forms. I attest a lot of my foundation to my Xing Yi Quan training and can only say good things about it.

I heard of one particular nei gong, but I never learnt it, I think they called it Di Long Jing possibly? this form has nothing to do with ground fighting or anything like that, that is maybe one branches name for a Di Tang Quan type training, but I am pretty sure it is not so traditional.

I would like to know more about Shanxi Xing Yi Quan's nei gong as it seems to have their own unique method's, maybe Tadzio if is around can contribute some.

Jon.

[I-mon]

jon,

i'm a total novice in all of these styles, but as a dedicated and ever-curious practitioner i've managed to study a little bit of hebei xingyi, yiquan, xinyiliuhe, and dai xinyi, all with good people.

the contract-expand driving the bowing and unbowing of the spine (which then drives the rest of the body) seems to me to be the common factor in all of them. dai style takes it to the absolute extreme at both ends, but it's still totally there in yiquan and all the others.

santi obviously sacrifices some of the vertical circle force but adds the horizontal, but the piquan in hebei still contains that same "rolling of the dan tian on a vertical sphere during storage and release."

that is, if the back-bow and dantian have both been developed and connected, which is rarely the case!

[Chanchu]

Interesting discussion
Can someone tell me

How far back can the Dai Hsing-I be traced?*

How far back can 5E/12A Hsing-I be traced?

* With some type of documentation if possible.

Thanks

[mixjourneyman]

Hebei xingyi has the shoulder methods. They are in Tuo.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Interesting discussion
Can someone tell me

How far back can the Dai Hsing-I be traced?*

How far back can 5E/12A Hsing-I be traced?

* With some type of documentation if possible.

Thanks

As Jarek has mentioned on his site, Dai Long Bang is said to have lived between (1720-1809), but Dai clan arts have said to have pre-existed before Dai Long Bang. There is no way to tell what was contained in Dai clan art's, but as mentioned by Jarek, possibly, san quan, san guin (or wu xing quan). Li Zheng is said to have taught, si ba (4 strikes) and shi da xing (10 animals).

I would guess Xing Yi Quan can be traced to Li Laoneng, but it would be very hard (most likely impossible) to give a date when the system was created. Li Laoneng was said to have lived between (1803-1888).

As for documentation, I am not sure what you mean by this? do you mean present the quan pu's (boxing manuals) of each styles? for one they are all in Chinese, even then they have very little regarding dates in them (fairly unreliable in this manner) and also they are not really for public disclosure. I know things in my possession I have sworn a oath to my teacher not to give anyone.

Jon.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Hebei xingyi has the shoulder methods. They are in Tuo.

As I mentioned before, they may be contained/hidden or interpreted in the forms, but they have no special exercises related to them.

For example in Dai Xin Yi Quan, we have 1. Guo Feng Bang (wind wrapping shoulder) 2. Ya Mo Bang (pressing down shoulder strike) 3. Li XIn Bang (plough shoulder) 4. Ru Lin Bang (enter the forest shoulder) 5. Wo Ho Bang (crouching Tiger).

The above mentioned shoulder strikes are actual forms and they train striking the shoulder in different directions (down, upwards, forwards/down, forwards, etc)

Jon.

[Buddy]

Wow. I'm not smart enough to contribute here, I only know my method. Even after so many years I feel like a rank beginner.

[mixjourneyman]

So are you saying that the obvious shoulder techniques contained within Tuo are not shoulder training methods? Its a shoulder strike or a shoulder arm bar, its obvious in the form. Therefor its a shoulder training method.