Dai Xin Yi Quan and Xing Yi Quan (why the difference?)

[Josealb]

Jon, You can upload pics in http://www.imageshack.us. Thanks in advanced for the effort.

Im interested in seeing stance training within Dai Xinyi. Im not familiar with it at all. You dont have to explain its details or how it works or anything...just a general idea of how it looks.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Jon, You can upload pics in http://www.imageshack.us. Thanks in advanced for the effort.

Im interested in seeing stance training within Dai Xinyi. Im not familiar with it at all. You dont have to explain its details or how it works or anything...just a general idea of how it looks.

Lu Song Gao in ji bu (performing yow san ba). Remember that this is the Henan Xin Yi Liu He Quan, not Dai.

Jon.

[Josealb]

Most excellent. Muchas gracias!

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Wang Shuwen (2nd term tudi of Lu Song Gao and current president of Lu Song Gao Xin Yi Liu He Quan Association)

Jon.

[Palmer]

Palmer who is your teacher? Xu Guoming?

Craig,

I have been learning XYLH from Sean Corman.

Palmer

[I-mon]

no no he's talking about XYLH. long diao bang is basically like the picture craig showed. there are some pictures of felipe in his little walkthrough here:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/felipe/liuhechicken.html

I'm curious....is it standard to step directly forward without lifting the leg? Yang Fansheng teaches a version of this where the rear foot, as it's stepping forward, lifts up and extends such that the toes almost touch the leading hand. Is that a common variation?

i think it's standard to step directly forward, but i think it's a common variation to lift the leg and train the downward stomping power as well.

thanks for the pics jon, that's the one!

[I-mon]

I do this slightly different, for example the rear thumb should be touching the hip and the front hand should be a little closer (sorry for being pedantic )

Jon.

in shanghai we'd do it so the back hand ends up behind the small of the back, palm out, and the front hand ends up palm in facing the solar plexus!

you do it WRONG!

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

I do this slightly different, for example the rear thumb should be touching the hip and the front hand should be a little closer (sorry for being pedantic )

Jon.

in shanghai we'd do it so the back hand ends up behind the small of the back, palm out, and the front hand ends up palm in facing the solar plexus!

you do it WRONG!

You fucking egg, where does most of my XYLHQ training come from? Shanghai (Li Zun Si, Wang Shuwen), they are my Shiye's in regards to these arts.

Jon.

[beegs]

Che Xing Yi Quan (talking about Xin Yi Dao camp), believe that "dun hou shi", etc were always in their system. Since now Xin Yi Dao is composed of Che Xing Yi Quan and also Dai Xin Yi Quan (coming from Wang Yin Hai), I would like to seek out a independent source (other Che Xing Yi Quan lines) to possibly confirm this. Also the tablet erected in 1925 is not enough hard evidence to prove that Che Yi Zhai learnt from Dai Wenxiong, more research needs to be conducted regarding this and many other things.

i say their is no doubt che learned dai, and some say more than his teacher at that. He learhned the system, theres no question from family teachings. If people think xinyidao is this or that, they really dont know the whole deal. Our dai style is not only from wang ying hai either,. Bu taught dai methods as he was taught directly from che as well. Li Shiquan is just as imporftant as Wang Ying Hai also.

Why are the systems so different? Its easy, Che and Dai really arent different at its core, however shanxi was a place where bodyguards were needed and Che modified things to make them quicker to learn and more immediate combat results, however the core of its art are retained as well.

Li never introduced Guo to his teacher,

1. Bang Fa=shoulder striking methods (I never really seen any methods in Xing Yi Quan which train this), now I am not talking about applications, people can make up what they like from the basic movements (that's cool), but I am talking about specific training methods, forms, etc.

che style has this

3. San ti shi (3 body posture) as to whom created this and why, there are many possibilities. As some of you know Dai Xin Yi Quan use "hu bu" aka Tiger stance, which is in appearance a forward weighted posture like other "gong bu", when it is fact weighted 50/50. There are a couple of techniques which use a more back weighted posture (similar to san ti shi), but are by no means emphasised. Jarek has mentioned one of the reasons why Dai favours the, bow stance over a back weighted stance, is due to dan tian rotating freely in this manner. So this brings to me the question if there is dan tian rotation in Xing Yi Quan, how is this possible in san ti shi?

one reason for this again, is actual combat, guys who actually fought alot and against weapons and were bodyguards,research what banks were in shanxi, etc does dantien save you from a thrusting spear? No, footwork does! Can you wait years to develope dantien when you have to escort money somewhere tomorrow?

For example in Dai Xin Yi Quan, we have 1. Guo Feng Bang (wind wrapping shoulder) 2. Ya Mo Bang (pressing down shoulder strike) 3. Li XIn Bang (plough shoulder) 4. Ru Lin Bang (enter the forest shoulder) 5. Wo Ho Bang (crouching Tiger).

their are 2 additional methods as well

I am not too sure with the Xin Yi Dao curriculum, but I know it varies considerably from what I do. Even in Qi Xian/Shanxi many teachers are making up more forms. My teacher has never felt the need to change anything.

Jay

nothing was changed. is it possible your teacher and even his teacher also had been taught variants as most lineages have? Do you feel all dai kuis students were all taught the same material?

the major reason the arts changed in my opinion were based on the need for quick self defense as i explained, and che retained the core knowledge and studied with dai family for a long time, just like every other art, very few maintained the harder core training, and the students that did do it, kept it in their lines, others felt satisfied with their modificatuion which produced great results.

Some people even feel that Farmer LI didnt learn much from Dai family, and thats why hebei is so different, che style differs because of che studying directly under dai family.

also some feel that it was che and li who modified xy for the bodyguard reasoning, and thats what was taught to guo, there s many theories.

I can tell you from our families thinking, Che studied with Dai family for sure. What Bu learned from Che is also very vast, and not all students were taught the same, and just like today, can every student grasp the same material, and are every student worthy? If some guy is a bully, do you show him the same stuf as some sincere student? All arts basically change for reason of neccessity, if Qi Xian was to be invaded in 1 yr, and they needed to teach the residents to defend the village, would they teach them to squat and expand? If your fighting ten guys with bladed weapons, are you gonna go into Hu bU for every strike, to get full dantien rotation? or would you use a santi type stance and footwork to be more agile and mobile?

who knows, gettin straight answers from the source is like pullin teeth, they dont even want the attention, very conservative people.

[I-mon]

interesting stuff beegs.

so what's the deal with the song style xingyiquan? how many types of xingyiquan are there in shanxi? did hebei xingyi start with li cun yi?

sorry for the noob questions.

jon i haven't been called an egg in about 13 years! chooooyce bro!

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Che Xing Yi Quan (talking about Xin Yi Dao camp), believe that "dun hou shi", etc were always in their system. Since now Xin Yi Dao is composed of Che Xing Yi Quan and also Dai Xin Yi Quan (coming from Wang Yin Hai), I would like to seek out a independent source (other Che Xing Yi Quan lines) to possibly confirm this. Also the tablet erected in 1925 is not enough hard evidence to prove that Che Yi Zhai learnt from Dai Wenxiong, more research needs to be conducted regarding this and many other things.

I say their is no doubt che learned dai, and some say more than his teacher at that. He learhned the system, theres no question from family teachings. If people think xinyidao is this or that, they really dont know the whole deal. Our dai style is not only from wang ying hai either,. Bu taught dai methods as he was taught directly from che as well. Li Shiquan is just as imporftant as Wang Ying Hai also.

(There is no way anyone can prove something which happened many generations as fact, as Jarek has pointed out to me a couple of times, more and more research is coming to light as time passes, you can only theorise and give "your opinion" and your teacher/line.)

Why are the systems so different? Its easy, Che and Dai really arent different at its core, however Shanxi was a place where bodyguards were needed and Che modified things to make them quicker to learn and more immediate combat results, however the core of its art are retained as well.

(This is also another opinion, if you did not know Dai Wenxion was a bodyguard at one stage of their life and the Dai's being so damn rich at one stage in their life, needed those skills for real life threats.)

Li never introduced Guo to his teacher

(How can you know this?)

1. Bang Fa=shoulder striking methods (I never really seen any methods in Xing Yi Quan which train this), now I am not talking about applications, people can make up what they like from the basic movements (that's cool), but I am talking about specific training methods, forms, etc.

Che style has this (would love to see some if you could share with us)

3. San ti shi (3 body posture) as to whom created this and why, there are many possibilities. As some of you know Dai Xin Yi Quan use "hu bu" aka Tiger stance, which is in appearance a forward weighted posture like other "gong bu", when it is fact weighted 50/50. There are a couple of techniques which use a more back weighted posture (similar to san ti shi), but are by no means emphasised. Jarek has mentioned one of the reasons why Dai favours the, bow stance over a back weighted stance, is due to dan tian rotating freely in this manner. So this brings to me the question if there is dan tian rotation in Xing Yi Quan, how is this possible in san ti shi?

one reason for this again, is actual combat, guys who actually fought alot and against weapons and were bodyguards,research what banks were in shanxi, etc does dantien save you from a thrusting spear? No, footwork does! Can you wait years to develope dantien when you have to escort money somewhere tomorrow?

(Dai Xin Yi Quan's footwork is very vast, using hu bu is limited, there are many other footwork methods.)

For example in Dai Xin Yi Quan, we have 1. Guo Feng Bang (wind wrapping shoulder) 2. Ya Mo Bang (pressing down shoulder strike) 3. Li XIn Bang (plough shoulder) 4. Ru Lin Bang (enter the forest shoulder) 5. Wo Ho Bang (crouching Tiger).

There are 2 additional methods as well (that is because you count, tang lang xing and ma xing, we don't)

I am not too sure with the Xin Yi Dao curriculum, but I know it varies considerably from what I do. Even in Qi Xian/Shanxi many teachers are making up more forms. My teacher has never felt the need to change anything.

Jay

Nothing was changed. Is it possible your teacher and even his teacher also had been taught variants as most lineages have? Do you feel all Dai Kuis students were all taught the same material?

(Nope, that it is one of my drives to seek out other teachers and interview them regarding their curriculum and teaching methods.)

The major reason the arts changed in my opinion were based on the need for quick self defense as I explained, and che retained the core knowledge and studied with Dai family for a long time, just like every other art, very few maintained the harder core training, and the students that did do it, kept it in their lines, others felt satisfied with their modificatuion which produced great results.

Some people even feel that Farmer Li didnt learn much from Dai family, and thats why hebei is so different, che style differs because of Che studying directly under Dai family.

Also some feel that it was Che and Li who modified XY for the bodyguard reasoning, and thats what was taught to guo, there s many theories.

I can tell you from our families thinking, Che studied with Dai family for sure. What Bu learned from Che is also very vast, and not all students were taught the same, and just like today, can every student grasp the same material, and are every student worthy? If some guy is a bully, do you show him the same stuf as some sincere student? All arts basically change for reason of neccessity, if Qi Xian was to be invaded in 1 yr, and they needed to teach the residents to defend the village, would they teach them to squat and expand? If your fighting ten guys with bladed weapons, are you gonna go into Hu bU for every strike, to get full dantien rotation? or would you use a santi type stance and footwork to be more agile and mobile?

who knows, gettin straight answers from the source is like pullin teeth, they dont even want the attention, very conservative people.

(I agree getting information in Shanxi is not a easy task.)

Jon

[Craig]

JB:

Might just be a misinterpretation on my part. I do practice the Ji Bu Yao Shuang Ba or however its spelled (thats how my coach taught me to spell it, and translated it literally as "chicken step circling* double palm/seize" [*not entirely sure on this one]. maybe someone who speaks can chime in?) as both a stepping movement and as a zhuang. I also practice a ji bu movement separately to that, also as a stepping movement and a zhuang. It is the same legs, just different hands and waist:



sorry for the shit picture, and its kinda old and im way too high but yeah...like this (the zhuang is performed with a 50/50 weight balance, the stepping is weighted on the front leg always except when in transition). the back foot being flat is not overly emphasised by my teacher during stepping, he says you should strive for it but if you arent flexible enough to do it then its not a huge deal. Although having said that, I tend to practice with it down as i have had a few ankle injuries and in trying to get them back to normal. when practicing the zhuangs both feet are always flat.

[beegs]

(This is also another opinion, if you did not know Dai Wenxion was a bodyguard at one stage of their life and the Dai's being so damn rich at one stage in their life, needed those skills for real life threats.)

i doubt the whole story will ever come about with people agreeing, same as all other arts,

cool stuff your sharing though.

[xingyijuan]

Interesting stuff guys. Unfortunately, agreeing with Beegs, the whole story will probably never be known. Wasn't there a thread recently asking why there seemed to be less politics in Xingyi than in Taiji? Politics are there, but people tend to discuss less about it in public. Thank you all for the great info!

[krisbowen]

So guys, politics aside, family knowledge kept in the family, what do we know?

There are variations in XYLH and XYQ.

Where are they the same? The 5 elements intended uses?
Do the six harmonies of XYQ grow from the root of XYLH?
It seems to me both want the practitioner to be in harmony at all times, is it the same 6 points of harmony? What are the differences that can be shared outsode of the family?
Where are the theoretical differnces (TCMA theory and things of that nature)?

This is all just food for thought and curiosity
From my experience XYQ has firm foundation inTCMA does XYLH have the same foundation that stays within the family?