the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

At least when people dabble we wont have to listen to them wax poetic about Bruce Lee anymore.

I think it's wrong to view MMA as "dabbling". Over the last 15 years it has evolved into a definate style of it's own, with a focus on BJJ for groundfighting, freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling for takedowns and MT/boxing/kyokushin for the standup.

None of those individual arts are "new", with the possible exception of BJJ, and that depends on how you define the term--BJJ is older than art that many folks consider "traditional".

The hard facts are that most CMA schools do not offer a way to realistically train a wide range of techniques without causing severe injury to your opponent/training partner. this is the same issue that led to the creation of classical Judo from jujitsu.

There is no question in my mind that IMA/CMA are useful and practical, if trained correctly. The problem is that too many IMA folks seem to want to feel better about the fact that they don't spar or train hard enough to use their arts, and too many MMA folks think they have the ultimate answer to all martial arts created since the beginnign of time. Rather than learn from each other most practicioners are content to stay in their own world where their fanatasies of invincibiltiy can remian untouched by reality.

The fact is that there are many, many, many similarities in techniques in arts ranging from TJQ to MT to BJJ. More similarties than differences, in my opinion.

No one is viewing MMA as dabbling, we're discussing the fine line between cross-training and dabbling.

SitYodTong wrote:None of those individual arts are "new", with the possible exception of BJJ, and that depends on how you define the term--BJJ is older than art that many folks consider "traditional".

What might also be worth considering is that BJJ is sort of an MMA in itself, AFAIK it "borrowed" a lot of stuff from judo, sambo, etc.

Overall, I think it is good to build a solid foundation in the higher elements of a "style" or emphasis (train in depth), then broaden one's skill set based on what seems most practical, interesting, and available at that point in time. Once one develops the ability to train and learn in a healthy and mindful way, and additional skills in various "styles" or approaches will come more quickly, assuming a solid foundation of movement, power, quickness, and strength.

An additional suggestion: Do the tough stuff early. By this I mean the training that requires better conditioning, strength, and flexibility and then leave the less physically intense training for when your body begins to age. Just as an example, wrestling or throwing early then striking and/or groundwork then weapons.

i lost to a new guy/ dabbler in a competition. he is a very good martial artist, but not an experienced wrestler. i still lost to him.

to me, dabblers and new guys are they same. they have not developed a game plan or solid technique. they fight with lots of instinct. also, they fight tooth and nail. i enjoy working out with them very much!

new guys and dabblers are very honest in their attacks, they telegraph, they clamp on like their life depends on it, and they fight like wild dogs until they are dead-beat tired! they don't give an inch. i love it!

plus you have to acknowledge the "new guy X-factor"- new guys can do crazy stuff and sometimes make it work. "how the hell did the new guy do that? WOW! i got beat by the new guy!"

if i can make my technique against a dabbler or new guy, then i feel good! this guy fights his heart out, and i ate him for dinner!

on the other hand, if i can't make my technique, i think "i suck! the new guy beat me! i need to work!" very humbling.

thank you New Guy! you took me off my pedestal!



also, new guys and dabblers are what keep most of our classes filled. we should be thankful!

John Wang said to me once "i have seen many little sprouts, but not many tall trees."

I'll just jump in here..

For years I have been a CMA stoutly against MMA. The truth is my grandmasters would love todays openess and cross training and they themselves would train with other stylists for one simple reason to enhance their style.

The true goal of any style is to learn about your body and developing/cultivating a natural way of generating and delivering power. If your body has to change drastically in structure such as Muay Thay hardening of the shins it is probably not gonna be a lifelong pursuit. However to develop yourself and to become formless is one of the highest levels and important to TMA but not necessarily the first goal of a MMA'er. The people who achieved this centuries ago developed their own styles and today we call those styles TMA. They were in fact MMA'ers who traveled all over looking for the strange and exotic to challenege and enhance their style. As Americans we have a young culture and are psychologically drawn to older "wiser" cultures and think TMA has been set since Da Mo showed some monks yoga.

As a CMA'er my issue is all the punk MMA'ers who have no depth and rely on natural ability aka my father beat me and I can take a punch and won't back down versus my teacher beat me and I am humble...and can still take a punch and won't back down.

Now if you have depth in a TMA art like many of the top UFC'ers do and then go freestyle for sport, money or perhaps in search of finding your formless form who cares if you are called MMA or TMA as long as you are on a martial journey of self discovery then I will call you brother anyday....or is it uncle?

(inserts subtle flame and laughs)
OH if your style is incomplete you will need to go the MMA route thus CMA'ers seldom crosstrain....hehehehe

soundofwater wrote:Overall, I think it is good to build a solid foundation in the higher elements of a "style" or emphasis (train in depth), then broaden one's skill set based on what seems most practical, interesting, and available at that point in time. Once one develops the ability to train and learn in a healthy and mindful way, and additional skills in various "styles" or approaches will come more quickly, assuming a solid foundation of movement, power, quickness, and strength.

An additional suggestion: Do the tough stuff early. By this I mean the training that requires better conditioning, strength, and flexibility and then leave the less physically intense training for when your body begins to age. Just as an example, wrestling or throwing early then striking and/or groundwork then weapons.

I agree, I believe most great martial artists have trained in this way.

Starting with the rough stuff when they were young and moving onto more refined techniques later in life.

I suppose at the end of the day you have to do what works for you, but you can't go wrong with a solid foundation in movement, power, quickness and strength as you have mentioned.

I don't think in terms of this art or that art anymore at all.

Nor do I think anything in and of itself is complete as far as martial arts go.

Nowadays, I think in terms of ranges, space and time, conditioning and strength, attribute development, speed and accuracy and methods that get and show definitive results.

having said that, I am in great shape, have vastly improved my game in all ranges and did it in a short timeline because ultimately its about mind, goals and reachable objectives.

I got a hell of a lot out of traditional martial arts as does all new martial stuff. there's nothing new in mma, it's all pulled from what came before.

Time and practice is hwat counts, not the style. style is moot. methods are not.

Pat wrote:on the other hand, if i can't make my technique, i think "i suck! the new guy beat me! i need to work!" very humbling.

thank you New Guy! you took me off my pedestal!

Yeah, we call those guys FNGs.