Xing yi Snake; elements

[Joe L.]

So there seems to be a good bit written about how the intent and shapes of the animals come into play, and some of the animals are quite evident when it comes to which elements make them up (tiger; double pi, etc.), but the one I am curious about (have just in passing learned it then left my old school) is snake.

Out of the animals I've seen or the couple I learned, this one just feels 'right'. Yet, movement and intent aside, when trying to figure out which forces are contained in it, I'm not sure I am nailing it. At some points it feels like a drilling down, then a drilling up, but I'd rather ask more experienced practitioners than just guess and experiment fruitlessly (and having no teacher available doesn't help either).

Any suggestions or points in the right direction is appreciated. Thanks people.

[Josealb]

It drills(zuan), wraps(Guo) and it flicks(Tiao). Those last two are found in Ba Zi gong, and they can be considered individual types of force, just like the elements.

[Joe L.]

It drills(zuan), wraps(Guo) and it flicks(Tiao). Those last two are found in Ba Zi gong, and they can be considered individual types of force, just like the elements.

I'm guessing the Tiao/flick is the last bit, where the striking hand goes up and out, and the drilling might be when the hand goes down to the hip/thigh area, along with the other hand on top drilling to protect the face (correct me if I am wrong here, since I am already guessing I am ) but what about the Guo/wrap part?

Thanks for the response so far, Jose.

[nianfong]

the guo is when you wrap that hand to your waist I believe.

the drilling is probably that same hand as it comes out. as I as taught it went more horizontal than the "vertical" nature of tiao. but you can probably also do it more vertical like tiao.

[Joe L.]

Fong: Ok when thought of as a Wrap for that part it makes a hell of a lot more sense. I just tried a few things out on an unwilling but cooperative coworker and it felt totally different.

In regards to how and where the drilling happens, or relates to Tiao, I am still not sure but I guess over time it will start to become more noticeable/have more clues to it. Good info all around.

[Franklin]

in one of the snakes i practice

after the forward hand tiao (flick upward)
then the forward hand drills
and then the back hand wraps (down twards the hip)
then that back hand becomes the forward hand and tiao flicks upward

hope that helps

franklin

[Joe L.]

in one of the snakes i practice

after the forward hand tiao (flick upward)
then the forward hand drills
and then the back hand wraps (down twards the hip)
then that back hand becomes the forward hand and tiao flicks upward

hope that helps

franklin

I must not have a certain movement in my snake then, because if the first movement is a flick (near the face/shoulder), which makes perfect sense, I don't have really any movement with that hand till after the back hand wraps. So it would it go Tiao, Guo then Tiao so far as I see it.

Unless you mean as the forward hand becomes the back, it drills back?

Thanks for the rest though, it's very helpful indeed.

[Franklin]

no about the hand drilling backwards

the drill is between the flick and the other hand going downward

the apps in this vid show an application for the drilling (part where you intercept)- then wrap, then flick



i was looking an youtube for an example of the form and saw that some styles don't emphasize the drilling part

franklin

[Buddy]

I saw that vid and am I right in thinking you're calling the chop to the arm wrapping? Looks like pi to me.

[JAB]

That video is a classic example of people applying things they have never done in sparring or real life. That is a sure fire way to get your arm broken if your opponent has any sense!
Jake

[Franklin]

I saw that vid and am I right in thinking you're calling the chop to the arm wrapping? Looks like pi to me.

lol

buddy i was just using the vid to illustrate the drill (zuan) that happens between the two movements- some forms emphasize the drill and some do not (our form emphasizes this forward drilling as the back hand is coming up)

as for wrapping i would not call what is in the video a wrap- but it does sort of follow the form

as for wrapping i have heard described two different ways- one would be wrapping the opponents limb and could be an app of that part of the snake form but the other idea of wrapping shows up in the ba zi gong that i learned and it has nothing to do with how you are located to your opponent- it has more to do with the fact that the opponent is in a position that he is wrapped and can not move/ has no options (at least that is my understanding)

as for snake i really think it is all about shoulder strikes and should concentrate more on store and release or expand and contract- i also think that it really is not so much elemental energy but something that makes up for some of the deficiencies of the system- it introduces the upward power (called tiao or flick) that really is not seen so much anywhere else until you get to the Ba Zi Gong... but then again you could also break it down as drill, wrap, flick....


franklin

[TaoJoannes]

Interesting discussion.

In the snake that I practice, the first part is kind of like part of the monkey shape, it's an oblique step with the lead hand coming up in a "cat washes the face" kind of movement, palm-out, while the rear hand dives down as if to cover the lead knee, palm-in. I suppose you could call that a double drill (tzuann) with a sort of splitting (pi) idea behind it.It could be a block protecting the face or leg, or even a pull with one hand and push with the other, or something else.

The second part turns the torso towards the adjacent corner and wraps the rear hand (now a fist) around the lead hand (which is palm-up) and stops at the forearm. This is kinda part of our fire (pao) element and can be a control or a downward strike to the forearm, or something else. I'm not sure exactly where it would fit in more traditional styles, if at all.

The third part is definitely beng all the way, it's a straight shot over the upward facing palm of the lead hand which can be a joint destruction (if you have their arm with the lead hand), a simple strike with or without leverage, or even a throw, I guess, if you switch it up a little.