Single and Double Palms.........your take

[Walk the Torque]

Ok,

This thread was partly inspired by a comment on the "heel toe vs. flat foot stepping" thread, where D GLenn wrote "it actually is the 'yin' to the rest of the 'yang' bagua that is normally seen".

This is a subject I have been interested in for a very long time. To me there is a definite difference in the feel, objectives and applications of single and double palms. I am very much interested in the assumbled meltitude's take on these, including whether you think there is in fact any diference at all.

I have heard some say that the single is primarily about horizontal force and double more about vertical force. This has merit but is a tad simplistic for my taste. I tend to think of the single also as accenting power moving outwards, away from the center, and in a relatively simple fashion, using a solid structure to wedge/drill/penetrate though defenses. There are both opening and closing movements with the single palm, but, it emphasizes the use of centrifugal force in application. In contrast, the double palm has a more downward and inward expression of power, that makes use of adduction and the centripetal aspects of the body method, and appears to break the structure by encouraging inward ellipses with the limbs (both arms and legs) to produce a more whippy flavour and apparent complexity to the forms.

I am aware that spirals can be made use of in all directions, but there does seem to be particular "meanings" to single and double palms and, given the superb quality of some of the discussions regarding Bagua so far, I was hoping to nut out a few of the salient features of the two.

There is more I have to add to my perception of the differences but I figured I'd check out what others have to say because I think some styles may apply the differences in radically different manners.

[johnwang]

- Use single palm when you know that your opponent can not rotate his body to get away.
- Use double palms when you know that your opponent may be able to rotate his body to get away.

For example, when you hook your opponent's right leg and push his right shoulder, he may borrow your force and spin and escape your leg hooking (if you are not pulling his right arm at that moment). If you push both of his shoulder then he can only fall back and not be able to spin in any direction.

Not sure this is your concern or not. It's very hard to guess when you talk about "solo" only.

[64Palms]

This is a very interesting topic.

When i started in Ba Gua and was learning Yin Yang theory i tried to apply that concept to every moevment - the trying itself led to somewhat to much structure in the single and double palm changes. From what you have described and from my own form investigation i know look at "whole" palm change as either yin or yang with the obvious variations and transformatiosn of each within. In Liang Shi Ba Gua Zhang the single palm change that i have learned is not about horizontal foce but vertical outward and ascending force plus internal spiral and a more fixed body movement - yin (that is less steps involved and the turn is somewhat stationary - an example of this is in LiZiMings movements here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fueL5Ds ... re=related having said that GM Li is doing very unexaggerated and small movement).

The second palm change (of which GM Li does a variation of) has more of a Yang quality in its larger steps and movement (body spirals) and up, out, and inward force generation - much like what you have described above - centripetal. Furthermore i think that part of the meaning behind the movement is to train the body to contract and expand in a variety of ways - SPC for more contraction to expansion with partial stationary elements (for Liang along a vertical line) while DPC for more expansion to contraction along a horizontal line with more vivid movment.

Sounds to me like you are trying to make your own style - that's a no no Mr. Torque!!

[D_Glenn]

Walk the Torque,

It sounds like you've figured it out. Yin is a centripetal force coming back to one's center, Yang is a centrifugal force going away from the center. In the Qian trigram the "waist hits" with a solid force outward, but in the Kun trigram Qilin shape the "waist removes" and the hands come back to the center in a relaxed whip-like manner. Horizontal force is yang while vertical is yin. When attacking you want to be wide and flat but when defending you want to be narrow and thin.

In the dragon form, which most of you do, there is the 8 methods (ba neng) these can be looked at as pairs of 4, one is more Yin the other more Yang, like the 搬 'ban' (moving) is more yin/centripetal while it's pair 扣 'kou' (capturing) is more yang/centrifugal capturing outward. The order of the 8 methods is the same across lineages and in the songs, they are arranged sort of from the middle outward but in the larger order go from yang to yin:

推 1- Tuī (Pushing) yang
托 2- Tuō (Lifting) yin
帶 3- Dài (Carrying) yang
領 4- lǐng (Leading) yin
搬 5- bān (Moving) yin
扣 6- kòu (Capturing) yang
劈 7- pī (Chopping) yin
進 8- jìn (Entering) yang

.

[Walk the Torque]

Thanks for your replies one and all.

D_Glenn,

Your post was very helpful. I am not totally clear on the meaning of "the waist removes" though

However

"Horizontal force is yang while vertical is yin.When attacking you want to be wide and flat but when defending you want to be narrow and thin"


Every once and a while a nugget of pure gold comes along. I wish to thank you for this one.

All the best

Conn

[wetmarble]

I guess I'm not really sure what you mean when you say centripetal force vs centrifugal force. Centrifugal force is not actually a force. Instead it explains a movement observed from a rotating frame of reference. Centripetal force is the external force required to make something follow a curved path. One is real (centripetal), the other is not (centrifugal).

In any event, SPC to me feels like it is working along the perimeter of the circle, while DPC feels like it travels through the center of the circle. When I ruminate on it, SPC feels yang to me, while DPC feels yin. I think both changes have very clear horizontal and vertical components and if you reduce either of them to one plane, then they are no longer correct. Personally, I do not agree with SPC being the more solid structure in comparison to DPC's more "whippy" flavor. I think both should demonstrate solid structure and not "whippyness". Of course, I may be bringing my own baggage to the table when I hear the word "whippy". I think that within the structure, the body should be relaxed, which should allow force to be expressed in a very fluid manner, but when I hear "whippy", my mind conjures up images that at best verge on uncontrolled and at worse are completely disconnected.

[GrahamB]

I guess I'm not really sure what you mean when you say centripetal force vs centrifugal force. Centrifugal force is not actually a force. Instead it explains a movement observed from a rotating frame of reference. Centripetal force is the external force required to make something follow a curved path. One is real (centripetal), the other is not (centrifugal).

He uses those terms a lot here:

[Daniel]

Hey Torque. And by the way, very good posts, D Glenn.

I can only add this, I guess.

The Single Change in the full Qian version, teaches you how to work with that specific energy and mindset in anything. You have to work the physical levels and the power applications bit by bit, but in essence, it teaches you how the trigram Qian manifests. You can play with this in your daily life too, as you of course can with most things from the IMA. Playing with Qian like this will let you discover a myriad of levels to use it, including how the Yang of Qian differs from Peng in Taiji and the Yang of Xingyi. In Qian you have the ever outgoing Yang that has no emotional charge and no sense of effort in going out. It just does, and keeps doing.

The Double Change, in the full Kun, does the same thing, but for full yin. Here you have the inward suctioning, smothering, neutralizing of full Yin. And you do the same with this as I mentioned above. It is also quite interesting to find out the clear difference between Lu in Taiji and Taiji´s general Yin versus the Yin in Zuanquan and the Kun Yin of Bagua.

The two also creates a whole different feel in your body, and in your hands. Doing Double Change a lot should create a similar feeling as to Piquan of your hands becoming like a soft metal.

After you have played with this a lot, you should also be able to use either one for any technique, and how to shift between them instantenously.

Anyways. Just my quarter (it´s more expensive to call from Across the Pond )

Edited: And it´s my experience that very few Bagua-practitioners, particularly in the West, really put the same time and effort into the Walking, Single and Double Change as people in Xingyi automatically put into Santi and the Elements. Wonder why. Watering down of information? Not using it in combat?



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Chris McKinley]

Good schtuff, guys.

Daniel, RE: "And it´s my experience that very few Bagua-practitioners, particularly in the West, really put the same time and effort into the Walking, Single and Double Change as people in Xingyi automatically put into Santi and the Elements. Wonder why.". Well, it starts with the fact that most neijia people in this country do not practice their art for serious combat, regardless of which aspects. But perhaps it is partially because those movements are not as obviously combative as the Xing Yi fists. Another aspect may be that the fists are obviously modular and stand-alone. Smaller bits that may be isolated more easily maybe?

The biggest reason I've come across is that, commonly in the U.S., there exists the belief that the linear material from hou tien is for fighting and xian tien stuff is for building form...a common saying among Gao practitioners. This isn't purely erroneous, but it's interpreted to exaggerated proportions such that the xian tien material is almost thought of as not very useful for actual fighting.

For me, any of the linear material is great for exploring singular tactics and combatives. I've pushed the tien gan for years as a gold mine of combat-worthy material if people would just treat it as more than calisthenic warm-ups. But the xian tien is where you get the shen fa and the movement quality that allows you to generate your own combatives in-real-time, rather than simply choose from a catalog of pre-made hou tien responses.

Not enough people are interested enough in the actual combat usage to become curious and really explore their art's material for that purpose. Sign of the times, I guess.

[johnwang]

[/quote]

I prefer to use the "stealing step" when my opponent comes to me, and use "cover step" when I go to my opponent.

[Walk the Torque]

I guess I'm not really sure what you mean when you say centripetal force vs centrifugal force. Centrifugal force is not actually a force. Instead it explains a movement observed from a rotating frame of reference. Centripetal force is the external force required to make something follow a curved path. One is real (centripetal), the other is not (centrifugal).
.

Wetmarble,

When doing my Bagua, My frame is rotating, and therefore however subjective, centrifugal force is in fact quite real to me.

In any event, SPC to me feels like it is working along the perimeter of the circle, while DPC feels like it travels through the center of the circle. When I ruminate on it, SPC feels yang to me, while DPC feels yin.

Another way I would explain the subjective difference would be that when doing the double palms it feels much more dense and compact energetically; as opposed to the single that, having the elements of contraction and expansion and stepping that accentuates this, tends to feel lighter in comparison.

The Double Change, in the full Kun, does the same thing, but for full yin. Here you have the inward suctioning, smothering, neutralizing of full Yin.

Now this is interesting. I wonder if you would care to elucidate as the mechanics of the double palm as contrasted against the single.

For me The main differences are in the stepping and resultant orientation of the body to the centripetal force created by the spiracle/turning of it (the body that is). To put it more simply (if that is possible),there are a few conditions that produce the quality of the single palm change:

1)Closing and opening of the body
2) Arms extend outward away from the center, on 'opening' of the body
3)Arms range of motion remains within the anterior portion to the frontal plane (see medical definition of frontal plane)
4)Hands moving away from the supporting leg on Yang/outward going movements

The Double change palm seems to me to require at least two of the following:

1)Arms moving in opposite direction to the movement of the center(navel)
2)Arms moving towards the body
3)Arms moving towards the direction of the frontal plane,i.e. the sides of the body(even if extending way from the torso)
4)accent on closing the kua or if opening, then hands moving towards opening side, and weight transitioning towards that side

there may be some of these 'external' elements I've missed but these seem quite important.

Edited: And it´s my experience that very few Bagua-practitioners, particularly in the West, really put the same time and effort into the Walking, Single and Double Change as people in Xingyi automatically put into Santi and the Elements. Wonder why. Watering down of information? Not using it in combat?

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

As Chris pointed out, the application of the movements is not so apparent; this can be quite discouraging even for those with martial experience, let alone those without. Also Hsing Yi appears easier to understand than Ba Gua and for this reason makes one feel that progress is more attainable. Both practices are quite labour intensive but the rewards, especially in the early stages, seem to be reaped more readily doing Hsing Yi.

[Daniel]

Hmmm. I had to think a bit here to give you a good post. Let´s take it slow. By the way, Torque, I really want to know more about your Lung Ta. I studied with a guy who studied with Henderson, isn´t it? Do you study with his teacher? Please PM me if you feel like it. I´d really like to know more.

Anyways. Bagua.

The style I´m doing is mainly focused on internal form and energetics. The outside movements doesn´t mean much. Don´t know if I can give a decent explanation in written form.

I am, increasingly so the more I practice and the more I see, quite convinced that Bagua is so complex you need to be very competent (10-15 years) in something else before you begin the training. It´s an incredible martial art, I love it, but actually being able to do the training, not to talk about manifesting the style in actual combat, is so advanced that I think many people are putting in training-time that should best be put to use in creating basics from something else.

Another way I would explain the subjective difference would be that when doing the double palms it feels much more dense and compact energetically; as opposed to the single that, having the elements of contraction and expansion and stepping that accentuates this, tends to feel lighter in comparison.

Yeah. That´s it. Each Change should create a different feeling energetically in your entire system, and absolutely down to the density of various parts of your body. The Single (Full Yang, Qian) should create a light but very clear yang feeling in your system, just as a side-effect from other energetics. The Double (Full Yin, Kun) should create what you are talking about here. Yang is going out; one version of Yin is going inwards and condensing.

One reason - besides all the basic ones - for becoming very skilled at Single and Double Change before learning the rest, is that the rest are simply further versions of change of Yin and Yang. If you don´t first digest the basics of Yin and Yang, you will miss out on large parts of the training of the rest of the system. Besides not having a body for it, power to apply in real life, and the skill, of course.

The Double Change, in the full Kun, does the same thing, but for full yin. Here you have the inward suctioning, smothering, neutralizing of full Yin.

Now this is interesting. I wonder if you would care to elucidate as the mechanics of the double palm as contrasted against the single.

For me The main differences are in the stepping and resultant orientation of the body to the centripetal force created by the spiracle/turning of it (the body that is). To put it more simply (if that is possible),there are a few conditions that produce the quality of the single palm change:

1)Closing and opening of the body
2) Arms extend outward away from the center, on 'opening' of the body
3)Arms range of motion remains within the anterior portion to the frontal plane (see medical definition of frontal plane)
4)Hands moving away from the supporting leg on Yang/outward going movements

The Double change palm seems to me to require at least two of the following:

1)Arms moving in opposite direction to the movement of the center(navel)
2)Arms moving towards the body
3)Arms moving towards the direction of the frontal plane,i.e. the sides of the body(even if extending way from the torso)
4)accent on closing the kua or if opening, then hands moving towards opening side, and weight transitioning towards that side

there may be some of these 'external' elements I've missed but these seem quite important.

...yeah, this is where it gets tricky. All parts of your list here I can put into either of the Single and Double Change. Or into the Yin version of the Qian as well as into the walking. Plus a few zillion more pieces of internal form and power usage. Not to mention doing opposite force in all movements, something very few in the West seem to work with, and putting in luoxuanjing or chanzijing in the movements. Doing either of those while doing Bagua is just so high tech that you meet very few who have the training-time to put in to do it. And just like in high-level Xingyi, I have been taught that there really are no "movements" per se that "are" a Change or an Element. You get taught physical templates that manifest the Change or Element in a typical fashion, but that´s only the blueprint where you start - the packaging, if you like. In the long run it´s a matter of the energy and intention of a specific Change, and the energy and intention of specific Element.

Edited: And it´s my experience that very few Bagua-practitioners, particularly in the West, really put the same time and effort into the Walking, Single and Double Change as people in Xingyi automatically put into Santi and the Elements. Wonder why. Watering down of information? Not using it in combat?

As Chris pointed out, the application of the movements is not so apparent; this can be quite discouraging even for those with martial experience, let alone those without. Also Hsing Yi appears easier to understand than Ba Gua and for this reason makes one feel that progress is more attainable. Both practices are quite labour intensive but the rewards, especially in the early stages, seem to be reaped more readily doing Hsing Yi.

Agree. I also think it´s a matter of the watering down of Bagua. Interestingly enough, Wang Xiangzhai, founder of Dachengquan, mentions in an interview that he has high respect for Cheng Tinghua, and if you are to do Bagua, please focus all your work into the Single and Double Change, and that will make your effort worth it for combat.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Walk the Torque]

Now this is interesting. I wonder if you would care to elucidate as the mechanics of the double palm as contrasted against the single.

For me The main differences are in the stepping and resultant orientation of the body to the centripetal force created by the spiracle/turning of it (the body that is). To put it more simply (if that is possible),there are a few conditions that produce the quality of the single palm change:

1)Closing and opening of the body
2) Arms extend outward away from the center, on 'opening' of the body
3)Arms range of motion remains within the anterior portion to the frontal plane (see medical definition of frontal plane)
4)Hands moving away from the supporting leg on Yang/outward going movements

The Double change palm seems to me to require at least two of the following:

1)Arms moving in opposite direction to the movement of the center(navel)
2)Arms moving towards the body
3)Arms moving towards the direction of the frontal plane,i.e. the sides of the body(even if extending way from the torso)
4)accent on closing the kua or if opening, then hands moving towards opening side, and weight transitioning towards that side

there may be some of these 'external' elements I've missed but these seem quite important.

...yeah, this is where it gets tricky. All parts of your list here I can put into either of the Single and Double Change. Or into the Yin version of the Qian as well as into the walking. Plus a few zillion more pieces of internal form and power usage. Not to mention doing opposite force in all movements, something very few in the West seem to work with, and putting in luoxuanjing or chanzijing in the movements. Doing either of those while doing Bagua is just so high tech that you meet very few who have the training-time to put in to do it. And just like in high-level Xingyi, I have been taught that there really are no "movements" per se that "are" a Change or an Element. You get taught physical templates that manifest the Change or Element in a typical fashion, but that´s only the blueprint where you start - the packaging, if you like. In the long run it´s a matter of the energy and intention of a specific Change, and the energy and intention of specific Element.

I realize the monstrous complexity of nuttiing out the differences between single and double, however I am interested enough in this subject to push on.

In the quote above you state that "All parts of your list here I can put into either of the Single and Double Change. Or into the Yin version of the Qian as well as into the walking".. First of all, would you mind telling me the (physical) difference as you see it, from a Yang Qian and the Yin Qian; by which I mean what exactly are you doing physically in one version that you are not in the other?

Secondly, yeah on reflection the list I drew up is not adequate to account for many movements within a multitude of styles. Its all relative anyway. The relative position and direction of an arm to the speed of a turning torso could possess the same quality done a number of different ways.

But there must be a way to give a solid nuts and bolts explanation as to why the differences in Single and double occur. I bet it has something to do with the stepping.

For instance, I've noticed that the footwork in the double change palm allows one to store energy more continuously than the single change. This appears to be a result of not pushing through the back leg to transport oneself from A to B, but instead using the one leg as a central axis to pull and place the other leg in a new position. The former lends itself to storing and then releasing momentum, and the latter couples the placement of the body (along the circle) and the ever shortening arcs described by the limbs, to continuously 'catch' the momentum and layer the internal pressures one on top of the other so to speak.

[Daniel]

Hey Torque. Well, it is an interesting subject. Let´s try it for a little while.

1) "In the quote above you state that "All parts of your list here I can put into either of the Single and Double Change. Or into the Yin version of the Qian as well as into the walking".."

First of all, don´t do this again. The colour is illegible on the screen unless I tip my laptop.

2) "Would you mind telling me the (physical) difference as you see it, from a Yang Qian and the Yin Qian; by which I mean what exactly are you doing physically in one version that you are not in the other?"

Well, there are two answers. One is that I have been taught what is termed a Yin-version of the full Yang, called the Dragon Change or the Water Palm. This is what you start with for a long time to get your body and system more OK with doing the full-on Yang of the Qian. You can keep doing it anyway, of course, and it´s one of my favourite changes.
The other version of this is that you can simply change the intention and the trigram-energy you are doing inside the physical change, to a yin version of Qian. This is more high-tech and much more advanced, but is where the system is going in the long run.

3) "But there must be a way to give a solid nuts and bolts explanation as to why the differences in Single and double occur. I bet it has something to do with the stepping. For instance, I've noticed that the footwork in the double change palm allows one to store energy more continuously than the single change. This appears to be a result of not pushing through the back leg to transport oneself from A to B, but instead using the one leg as a central axis to pull and place the other leg in a new position. The former lends itself to storing and then releasing momentum, and the latter couples the placement of the body (along the circle) and the ever shortening arcs described by the limbs, to continuously 'catch' the momentum and layer the internal pressures one on top of the other so to speak."

Like I mentioned in my other post, you always have the physical template of the Change, just like you have the physical template of the Elements. But believing that this "is" that Change or that Element, is being stuck in very crude training, and will mean that the practitioner´s art doesn´t evolve much. But you have to have physical template. You have to have a package - or like I say in one of my articles, a pizza-box. Either that or carry that pizza with extra mozzarella all the way home, and it looks like it´s going to rain. But believing that the box is the pizza is where many practitioners of IMA get stuck, often due to the lack of skilled enough teachers or a willingness to really learn.

I do not think it has to do with the stepping, not as a defining factor. All goes back to your intent, your yi, shaping the energy and the trigram you´re working on. The intent is what always shapes each style at the core. The intent for each Change will shape how you do that "pizza-box". If you change the intent, so should the rest change. This is the aim of both Bianxing in Xingyi and what some call Yizhang in Bagua.

So you would learn the "template" in Double Change to do what you described. But is that the only way those movements can be done? No. This is simply the template where you learn that specific box and what you can do with it. You can put exactly the same stuff into the physical movements of the Single.

Now this is interesting. I wonder if you would care to elucidate as the mechanics of the double palm as contrasted against the single.

For me The main differences are in the stepping and resultant orientation of the body to the centripetal force created by the spiracle/turning of it (the body that is). To put it more simply (if that is possible),there are a few conditions that produce the quality of the single palm change:

1)Closing and opening of the body
2) Arms extend outward away from the center, on 'opening' of the body
3)Arms range of motion remains within the anterior portion to the frontal plane (see medical definition of frontal plane)
4)Hands moving away from the supporting leg on Yang/outward going movements

The Double change palm seems to me to require at least two of the following:

1)Arms moving in opposite direction to the movement of the center(navel)
2)Arms moving towards the body
3)Arms moving towards the direction of the frontal plane,i.e. the sides of the body(even if extending way from the torso)
4)accent on closing the kua or if opening, then hands moving towards opening side, and weight transitioning towards that side

there may be some of these 'external' elements I've missed but these seem quite important.

...yeah, this is where it gets tricky. All parts of your list here I can put into either of the Single and Double Change. Or into the Yin version of the Qian as well as into the walking. Plus a few zillion more pieces of internal form and power usage. Not to mention doing opposite force in all movements, something very few in the West seem to work with, and putting in luoxuanjing or chanzijing in the movements. Doing either of those while doing Bagua is just so high tech that you meet very few who have the training-time to put in to do it. And just like in high-level Xingyi, I have been taught that there really are no "movements" per se that "are" a Change or an Element. You get taught physical templates that manifest the Change or Element in a typical fashion, but that´s only the blueprint where you start - the packaging, if you like. In the long run it´s a matter of the energy and intention of a specific Change, and the energy and intention of specific Element.

In the system I´m doing, focus is on first learning the physical Changes and from that slowly understanding how each Trigram works, both physically, energetically, in mind, tactically and strategically. Then slowly understanding how it manifests in the universe itself. Over time, you are taught the Internal Palms, the energetic filling of each Trigram, and combine this with the external shape. Way down the line, when you are at home in those in all eight, you learn how to combine the external and internal palms with other Trigrams to create Hexagrams. It´s very advanced training, but becomes a nightmare to fight since you can change internal palm several times within the space of some seconds, something few opponents are trained to counter.

Also worth adding the basic info for other readers that the Single Change is the core of the entire system. The amount of life and power you have in the Single - with variations - and in your walking, is what decides your skill in Bagua. And if you are reading this and think Bagua is incredible (it is) please read this a few times again. Sorry to quote myself, but I find this advice invaluable.

I am, increasingly so the more I practice and the more I see, quite convinced that Bagua is so complex you need to be very competent (10-15 years) in something else before you begin the training. It´s an incredible martial art, I love it, but actually being able to do the training, not to talk about manifesting the style in actual combat, is so advanced that I think many people are putting in training-time that should best be put to use in creating basics from something else.

Anyway. This is my take on it. Does this make sense, Torque?



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Walk the Torque]

Anyway. This is my take on it. Does this make sense, Torque?



D.

Well yes, from what your telling me, it is all down to intention. So in this case let me ask you; what is the difference between generating the intention for the single and double palms?

Also what is the difference in application of say a downward chopping action using the quality of the single palm change and the double palm change?