Fighting & alphas

[Darthwing Teorist]

I don't know if any serious research has been done with regards to martial arts, fighting and alpha male status. I am limiting this to the males, not because I don't think that females cannot be succesful fighters (some of them obviously are) but because there are more males involved in martial arts and violence is a usual venue for males to show dominance.

We all got into martial arts for various reasons, but for a lot of us there was at least some episode of getting our asses kicked at some point or some fear for our security. Having said that, I noticed that a lot, if not most, of the martial artists who sucessfully fought, either in the ring or outside, may be considered alpha males. I don't know if it just a matter of showing more confidence than others.

I have trouble hurting someone else without a valid reason. Valid reasons to me usually mean my personal security or defending someone else. Now, I may fight out of anger but that is a special case. But I have trouble REALLY wanting to hurt my opponent during intense sparring or competition. There is a certain worry about escalation and my own security: I don't want to risk injury if I can avoid it. But there is also the matter of concern about my opponent. I am usually the type of guy who is concerned about the welfare of the people I know. Though not always, sometimes I may back down of certain social situations to avoid conflict. I am not sure anymore if it is a result of my training and philosophy (to avoid conflict if it is not necessary) of if I just back down in front of the other's will.

I am curious to explore the angle of competition fighting through the view of alpha/beta male status.

[I am...]

An enjoyable read! I am not sure how I can weigh in on this, since it is hard to determine accurately whether a person can tell how "alpha" they are, if at all. On top of that, a person may be a big fish in a small pond, but a small fish in the big pond, so to speak.

I would say nonetheless that I have observed much the same regarding sport fighting, most competing fighters are typically "alpha males", although some of the best I have seen don't carry themselves that way.

This in some ways may again become, "its the fighter, not the art, that matters". I am curious how others will contribute.

[bruce]

if you are not a "alpha" type i think it may not be as easy to defend your self. the worry about escalation is always a concern for me since i "spar" with a lot of strangers and i do not really know them so there is a chance they may become scared and escalate the situation.

being big helps with the alpha thing often my presence is enough to chill people out.
i think it is good to have enough understanding of your own ego to be able to back down from some situations. it is mostly the ego that allows people to get into fights. control the ego and you will not get into fights unless it is a extreme situation of just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[johnrieber]

I have trouble hurting someone else without a valid reason. Valid reasons to me usually mean my personal security or defending someone else. Now, I may fight out of anger but that is a special case. But I have trouble REALLY wanting to hurt my opponent during intense sparring or competition. There is a certain worry about escalation and my own security: I don't want to risk injury if I can avoid it. But there is also the matter of concern about my opponent. I am usually the type of guy who is concerned about the welfare of the people I know. Though not always, sometimes I may back down of certain social situations to avoid conflict.

in terms of pack behavior, that's a good description of a good smart alpha dog.

bruce's points are good, too.

sport fighting may not be the best backyard to evaluate your alpha-or-not thing in. one of the deals with alpha dogs is, drawing the line between must-hurt or not.

[Daniel]

Good subject. Will write more tomorrow when I have time.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[David Boxen]

From my totally uneducated pov, it's the beta males who are interested in getting into fights. If you are alpha you are secure in yourself and don't feel the need to show dominance through physical aggression.

But I also think that the labels "alpha" and "beta" are far too simplistic. All I care about is being the Omega

[Michael Babin]

Competitive males are less frequent in the internal martial arts [in my experience in Ottawa, anyway] and often make the best fighters when they do stick around although they usually have less patience with solo training unless they are competitive in relation to winning medals for form performance and/or with meditative practices.

Unless bullies, they are also usually better training partners than the fearful types who are drawn to the internal arts because of the popular image of the underdog being able to learn "tricks" or esoteric secrets that allow easy victory. A fearful student is one less likely to be able to control what they do in a training situation and some never overcome this attitude.

Size too is a funny issue as often the largest students are the nicest fellows with the best intentions in terms of using the appropriate control while training while the smaller fellows often overreact [at least when beginners] either because they are fearful of injury or haven't developed the correct technique yet.

Incidentally, at least in my limited experience locally and in doing many workshops with "name" teachers, the best such from a technical perspective are often slightly smaller than average for males as they must do everything 100% to get it to work against larger and more experienced peers.

On the other hand, especially in taiji, bigger practitioners often tend to coast and plateau in terms of technical ability cause they are able to quickly learn to use their size and/or strength to compensate for a mediocre application of priniciples and techniques. Some learn to get past this when they meet superior though smaller technicians while others just switch styles or teachers so they can go back to "coasting".

And, of course, there are always exceptions to any generalization...

[BillyK]

FWIW, i'm the typical beta (or omega, or whatever the "bad" kind of man is called in this fratboy psychology), and i've never lost a fight.

actually, now that i think about it, all the guys i beat up until now were "alphas".

[Mut]

well done BillyK, amazing you have never lost a fight! you show those ' alphas' how it is done!

[Darthwing Teorist]

Thank you all for the answers, they are very interesting.

in terms of pack behavior, that's a good description of a good smart alpha dog.

You're making me blush. Seriously, I thought that it was beta male behavior. You can say that I know next to nothing about these matters, only general lines.

sport fighting may not be the best backyard to evaluate your alpha-or-not thing in. one of the deals with alpha dogs is, drawing the line between must-hurt or not.

You may be right. I was wondering if there was a link between sport fighting (where you willingly fight, knowing that usually there are limits: it may be sparring or any agreed on fight).

From my totally uneducated pov, it's the beta males who are interested in getting into fights. If you are alpha you are secure in yourself and don't feel the need to show dominance through physical aggression.

I was under the impression that betas fight to challenge alphas for their place. But alphas may fight to eliminate dangerous betas. Though your point about alphas' security seems to be along the same lines as John Rieber's post.



PS:

In my experience large men are usually more secure, unless they are picked on. Is that an alpha trait? It sounds so, but I suspect that there is more to this than size. There is also psychological dominance, which I suspect that it is more prevalent than physical dominance.

[shmirsh]

I am limiting this to the males, not because I don't think that females cannot be succesful fighters

that triple negative made my head spin

[Daniel]

If I remember the study correctly, out of the top 100 companies in the US, 80% had CEO´s with a height of 6 foot or above.

Wish Chris Mac was looking at this, but he´s probably off making Alpha´s cringe just by walking by.

Interesting topic, though...an Alpha would automatically assume that they are running the pack. They would be secure in their roll, possibly to the point of not believing they can be usurped from it at all. A "Beta" would, I assume in this discussion at least, be a subservient male on the make.

Problem is that the field of variables here is so wide, that debating without looking at those becomes kind of thin. You would get into things on psychology on a person´s problem in wanting to dominate even when - or especially when - they can´t. Failed Betas, perhaps. (we should design T-shirts and hand out... )

The professional ring fighters I have seen have not been people I would characterize as naturally Alpha. Quite frankly, I believe that very few going into MA are. We get into it for a reason. We might end up being far smarter and more lethal than natural Alphas, but most of us don´t start there - except perhaps in brains.

Reading Steve Morris´s bio on his page, shows a very clear description of someone who is a natural Alpha, to my mind. He is there; he´s simply fighting people who bother him, not particularly so that they have a chance of challenging his Alpha status.

We also have posturing (for details, see Grossman´s On Killing). The animal that truly simply fights and doesn´t stop is an aberration. Posturing is a built-in defence mechanism to avoid the strongest of the species kicking the bucket too much. Posturing in human males are of course "Who you looking at? Huh? You looking at me?" or "You better get your ass out of here right now..." or "Someone hold my arms to stop me! Someone hold me back!"...as well as equally pathetic collections of ever larger muscles etc.

Then the question becomes if being or looking like an Alpha is a help. On average, I think, yes. If it´s about physical threat, then yes. Physical Alphas, can, however, get into serious trouble against Betas who have power over them, simply because the Beta can get their own back in the job, being smarter, working for the IRS, or similar. Alphas as close protection or doormen work for simple threats, but not necessarily complex ones. And the quote from a former member, "most SAS being wiry buggers like me" is another. Bill Gates - who I think that we can agree on is at least not a physical Alpha - was quoted in a speech at some College that, "Be nice to the geeks here in school. You will be working for them when you´re adults". And we all know that few school Alphas become all that successful later.

I´m 6"1. (Swedish height ) But I really think that being able to look harmless and have the ability to shift into something else is much more useful in real life. It´s a dimmer, and all parts of it is useful. I didn´t start out having as much muscle as I have now (Xingyi, Bagua, daoist MA, other things, and reading a lot of books, of course) and notice these days that sure, situations of simple threat dissolve faster, but also that everyday Betas in normal professions get pissed off at me on sight simply because I´m big, even though I´m a nice guy. And if I was going for what I would consider real threat, it is the guys who are dead quiet and unassuming. They won´t posture. Push them enough and they will simply kill and then shuffle off.

So, it´s all back to the old saying, "Walk softly, and carry a hidden combat shotgun."



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[BillyK]

well done BillyK, amazing you have never lost a fight! you show those ' alphas' how it is done!

the problem with "alphas" is that' it's all mental. they think they're alphas and behave like alphas, but when the shit hits the fan, they lose. they're deluding themselves.

so, IMHO, that whole alpha, beta, gamma whatever stuff is bullshit, nothing more than grasping at straws for weak people.

[Chris McKinley]

IME, it is those most concerned with social hierarchical standing that battle for position. Any model of behavior ultimately falls short of actually being that which it is attempting to describe, and the alpha/beta model is no different. Further, in higher animals strict adherence to the assigned trends does not rigidly occur. Humans, with their reasoning capability, throw off the trend even more, especially when acting individually. Alpha/beta roles can switch depending upon context and circumstances.

For me, I prefer to stay out of the whole jockeying for position nonsense when possible. It's the same drive that causes martial artists to create the need for their own skills by issuing challenges and other such predatory behavior. Far from intimidating (and thus provoking) alpha males while walking down the street, I prefer to remain a combination of alert, confident and otherwise unnoticeable. I neither play the victim nor appear to be looking for one. This is all part of a more professional mindset. My job is to keep myself safe....looking for other males to challenge for power is not conducive to that task. That's a game for the fratboys on Friday night.

[Dmitri]

rigidly occur

You should write romance novels, man.

"remain a combination of alert" -- nice one! (sorry I'm just in a horsing-around kind'a mood...)


But seriously though, the "neither play the victim nor appear to be looking for one" is what I hope I'm projecting as well (or at least that's the goal/idea I have); that IMHO is the correct "taiji attitude", i.e. balance... Deviation too far in either direction increases potential for inviting trouble...