Internal Training and External Conditioning

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Chris Fleming on Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:44 pm

I feel what you're saying. Today I did some deadlifts and was using a lighter weight to explode up quickly with it. I could lift a heavier weight to build brute strength but that would be a much slower grinding kind of lift. I like both but am partial to working for more strength. The explosive strength method works very well when you are going on a back-off week or going back to, lets say, 70% of your 1RM as described in Pavel's book Power to the People. Doing it that way has worked well for me thus far.
Last edited by Chris Fleming on Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Bodywork on Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:07 am

And all things being equal in fighting skill-that type of strength will always be moved by internal power in a grappling situation. Once again, assuming the guy with internal power knows HOW to grapple, he will have the advantage as he can both; deliver more mass, control it from being manipulated better, and will be more sensitive to positional changes and hit with power from very close-in with no wind-up. I demonstrated this with a BJJ purple belt (no gi MMA) when I tagged him from flat on my back in the stomach and he sat out for 15 minutes. He doubted it could be done. applicable power delivery from close-in, in a stand up when someone is trying to close with you or throw you is extremely tiring for men trying to control you, so they opt for striking as they can't get-in. Striking from someone with internla power takes on a different meaning as our arms can control and trap better and do not need to chamber to deliver. It makes a superior game of head hunting for a knockout. but hey, anyone can get tagged. We';re just talking about percentages and approaches in a fighting format. Anyway, muscle trained through lifting, isolates or joins in various muscle chains that make you lighter and easier to move in grappling. It is one reason that many grapplers take legs or manipulate shoulders. It’s much easier to quadrant a lifters body and make them do what you want when dirving them.
As for men going for lifting to build strength? I've no wish to debate it. Have fun. It works. Most martial artists still think and train that way. If you see or experience some of the rather sorry excuses for "internal artists" I've met who really don't have a clue either how to actually fight, or actually produce internal strength, it explains why so many fighters dismiss them and their “understanding" and opt for raw strength. It also explains why men with real internal power are so rare.

Guys like John Wang will always rely on their muscle and technique and are not to be taken seriously in discussions about internal power. You might as well ask a judoka or BJJ guy about internal power and listen to –their-opinions because they are good at jujutsu. My jujutsu does not and never has, defined my understanding of IP. It is a vehicle by which I express power. Likewise my punching and kicking power does not define my IP. My IP is expressed in the way I hit. Of course I could argue like John does (from his expereinces) that my experiences-the many broken bones, internal bruising, knockouts from throws and hits is an example of or argument for- Internal Power-in use-but why bother. I suppose another way to look at it is with the Gracies. Their fight records are something like 28-5-2, or 30-1-1. Then you have Rickson, who trains Yoga and discusses relaxation and breathpower and structure while grappling-sound familiar? His record is something like 368-0-1
Frankly, I am continually surprised reading these pages. A while back I read an excellent and fairly concise essay on internal movement by a fellow here and I was intrigued to meet him. Having met him, I am no longer moved by anyone’s intellectual understanding of what internal means-rather I will wait to see if they have any real grasp of it at all in their bodies or if it is just more talk. Thankfully there are guys still pursuing internal power (not that they are finished works in any way) who actually DO know what they are doing and training it in a very practical sense, but interestingly with grappling and combatives as a goal. I am not surprised they are a minority.
None of that touches on how it is a better way to move-in life- or how it may help healthwise.


The name is Dan by the way, not Dave.
Last edited by Bodywork on Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:14 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Walter Joyce on Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:26 am

Sorry Dan, we only met that one time about 3-4 years ago.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Bodywork on Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:31 am

Oh hell Walter no apologies necessary Bud.
Hey my schedule is much looser for me this year hopefully we can do the park thing again. What a beautiful neighborhood you live in.
I have had some significant power jumps and softening since then, maybe we can have some more fun playing.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Interloper on Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:15 am

While internal power certainly is not defined by muscular strength, and I don't see that weight training contributes anything to the internal body skills themselves, I would think that it is not detrimental to build muscle for the purpose of having more body mass to use. A small, light framed person, however skilled internally, will be at a disadvantage against a person of equal skill but greater body mass, IME. Keeping extra mass on you can't hurt, In that respect.

I suppose you could get fat to add mass, but pound-per-pound muscle is denser than fat and healthier to have. ;)

In view of that, I have found certain controlled forms of natural load-bearing work to be useful (and these could probably easily be converted to a weight-training discipline, too), as you can't build muscle mass by just doing normal exercise. But I'd never subscribe to the kinds of power-lifting programs that have been suggested on this thread because they condition the absolutely wrong types of body responses for inculcating good internal skills.
Last edited by Interloper on Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby jafc on Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:41 am

I have two objections to the whole weight-lifting - or better put strength training - is detrimental to internal training.

1.) this thread is treating all strength training methods as though they are the same. They are not. Proper strength requires correct body alignment to move the weight without injury. Full ROM of trained muscle groups is the goal rather limited or partial ROM. Use of core muscles & accessory muscles to stabilize the body during lifting should also be a major component. Stretching with or without weight is part of a balanced regimen. Obviously some of these concepts can be beneficial in IMA.

The most recent, popular iteration of this kind of strength training is kettlebells when done with correct technique. Let's call a spade a spade, in IMA we do similar exercises. Holding stances for long periods of time is strength training (among its other goals). Training with weapons (esp. heavy weapons) is strength training. Our IMA forefathers held many manual labor, heavy work jobs (farming, construction, ....) - that is strength training. Truthfully, a certain baseline level of strength is needed to get IMA training off the ground (if you can only posture for a few seconds, it is real hard to get the alignment right.). So, I don't think its a foregone conclusion that they are mutually exclusive activities. In fact, I would argue that most IMAist have been doing it all along - just in an intelligent, thought out way.

Strength training that results in tight, big muscles with limited flexibility & ROM are NOT beneficial for ANY sport. Just like there are a lot of "not right" IMA programs out there, there are many more "not right" strength training programs.

2.) Cultivating internal power, proper alignment & good Chi flow are properties of having a human body. It is not, in my opinion, the property of having a specific kind of human body. If you study diligently, the goal is achievable - thin, fat, big boned, frail, whatever.... Since the attention is to what goes on inside & we all have similar constructs, it should not matter. You can't tell me that all of your better students have desk jobs & none have more physical jobs. So it should work, regardless of body type. Look at the variety of appearances of the most recent IMA masters - they are all different

Now, obviously some improvements on the current state of the body are desirable. People with arthritis will need to pay attention to the joints early on & so on.

So to say a fit, athletic guy who does strength training properly is a bad candidate for IMA because his work or other hobbies that have resulted in that level of fitness are detrimental to his IMA training is a bit counterintuitive. I think a good IMA training program would not be cookie cutter but rather have good results regardless of a body type.

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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby jafc on Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:52 am

One thing further, many in the larger MA community (not on this forum in general), use the "I am doing IMA" as an excuse for "I don't have to be fit" or worse "I dont have to work hard". This kind of attitude is ridiculous & probably why we catch a lot of flack from other more "external" styles. Again, I said "fit" not "in shape". You can be fit & still a bit heavy - round is - at the end of the day - a shape.

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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Bodywork on Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:37 am

jafc wrote:Strength training that results in tight, big muscles with limited flexibility & ROM are NOT beneficial for ANY sport. Just like there are a lot of "not right" IMA programs out there, there are many more "not right" strength training programs.

So to say a fit, athletic guy who does strength training properly is a bad candidate for IMA because his work or other hobbies that have resulted in that level of fitness are detrimental to his IMA training is a bit counterintuitive. I think a good IMA training program would not be cookie cutter but rather have good results regardless of a body type.

JC

I snipped and left these two comments as I think they are sufficient.
a) I don't think (all) weight training is bad. I was NOT talking about isolated body building.
I lift and train with resistance, in conjunction with internal training. I do so in a very specific and continuous method, in cycles where I stop lifting all together. Anyone who knows me and has trained with me over time will tell you that when I am cycled "off" of lifting- my power goes up. Lifting, no matter how far it extends to the power lifting spectrum VS the ridiculous, body building, isolation spectrum, still leaves residual "pump" feelings where the muscles are chained in response-which is useful for moving their weight. It also leaves triggers within the muscles themselves to fire. This will lead to a latent tension that when grappling is easier to "have" and own when trying to throw someone. I will also maintain from many years of experience that lifters have serious directed weight issues. Meaning their muscles "fire" toward one goal and one only. Driving in a direction- together. Also there is a directed and decidedly one -sided issue with strikes. Striking is done through a series of muscle chaining that terminates in a single side weighted force. Which is fine, there are many powerful strikers. But they need to chamber each time to delvier full power blows.

b) I don't think all internal training will lead to usable skills.
I will not speak to all methods of internal training either. I will only say that I have been more disapointed then enthused by those I have met so far. I understand and agree with most of the dismissive attitudes offered here. Folks being out of shape has little to do with it. I think its ore that they have not truly accessed any usable power from their intent and cannot move fluidly with power. If you couple that with a lack of experience in grappling you have a very embarrasing representative for an art. Little Lord Fauntleroys (who could be taken apart by your averge high school wrestler) running around as lineage holders or representatives is probably nothing new in any art.

Internal training with intent specifically avoids single direction motions, the muscles are trained to react antagonistic in a relaxed "potential" state fully engaging facial/tendon and bone to move as a whole. This can only be done through trained intent. Moving in an integrated fashion where our spine and equilibrium is held will only be learned through intent and only learned to be held through progressive resistance. Weight training will not help AT ALL. Moving this way also avoids triggers in muscle groups as well since the contradiction in directed forces is antagonistic thus fully engaging more mass. It all but eliminates single side weighting issues-another serious draw back to anyone grappling. Making it very difficult to get kuzushi on you. Most judo guys try and then dump out ad change positions trying to create and opening they can’t have. Overall the effects are when trying a leg reap it’s like hitting a tree. The leg doesn’t move. Or when trying a shoulder throw or O-goshi your body feels like hard rubber and they bounce off of you (if you let them) or you take the energy and down them as they simply cannot "have" (that all important term I used earlier) anything that they can manipulate. Striking engages more mass. Mass times velocity make applicable power, so the more mass the more power. Since the mass it centrally held and the ground is in the hand, a strike can be extended and the power to hit is "there" you don’t need the retraction, set-up cycle. So when you are in, you can hit several times while inside. Power to power, the power is simply cleaner. I was with a navy boxer and was hitting him so hard that his blocks were useless. He hit himself in the face with his own hands from bouncing off of my arms. He showed me the bruises and lumps all over his arms later that week I've done this with karateka offering their hardest blocks to my strikes which ended up with me hitting them in the face every time-right through their blocks. Their defense was useless. I have been convinced from years of playing that power-to-power, pound-for-pound it is a cleaner and clearer power transfer. So far I haven't seen anything to change my mind.
Last edited by Bodywork on Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby jafc on Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:44 pm

Bodywork,
I think it is likely that our two position are closer than they appear & my lack of articulate prose is the reason for apparent disagreement.

I think my main point was simply that not all resistance training or strength training is bad. Like everything else in IMA, considerable thought needs to be put into how, what, & when, etc... strength training is to be used. Again, like most of my IMA experience, realizing something is not good & starting from scratch will come up not infrequently.

I agree that cycling a resistance program is a useful tool, including periods where you cycle off. I agree that some forms of strength/ resistance training are beneficial when done in the right amount with proper goals.

I agree that some forms of lifting set you up for a conditioned, uni-directional, ballistic neuromuscular response. What I mean by that is that the muscle or chain of muscles involved in a specific lifting movement will become "automatic" & triggered over time. So that, when the muscle stretch reflex is triggered, you get that ballistic response. Obviously in IMA, this is not necessarily a good thing since the "listening" component is removed by the automaticity & ability to smoothly adapt power as the opponent changes is negated by the ballistic nature of the "reflex".

My meager skill would likely not change your impression of the guys you have encountered. I mean that seriously. In my defense, this shit is hard. It has taken more time to unlearn bad habit, deprogram bad neuromuscular response than I had anticipated. I am constantly amazed by the muscular memory & its penchant for popping up when I had thought it dead. Moving fluidly is hard & frustrating. Moving fluidly with power & balance even more so. Is it any wonder some many people give up? The training calls for a level of self-examination bordering on religious fanaticism. I am heartened to hear that you have been successful in your endeavors.

enjoy the remaining weekend
JC
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Chris Fleming on Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:41 pm

Hey I'm open to learning more and am not completely "set in my ways".

Still though, I have to look at it rationally. The masters of old were mostly farmers. They "strength trained" every day. And then they had to do their "internal" practice. If they weren't farmers and had a business, say a lumber business, we have to remember that life was different from modern times today. If you got a shipment of lumber to your shop to unload, there was no forklift to unload it. You are picking up that shit yourself. Life was different, and we live in luxury compared to back then. Look at Ueshiba. He would make over sized tools for himself just so he could have even MORE "resistance training" as he farmed. His sword work drills were all about building more strength. Yet his internal power was legendary and even a grab, much less a strike was said to be like getting struck by lightening. I don't think anyone is going to accuse him of being stiff and off balance either.
Last edited by Chris Fleming on Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Bhassler on Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:48 pm

Dan,

Have you tried strength training programs like Pilates, Gyrotonic, etc.? Just curious as to your perspective on some activities that tend to work the muscles through fuller ranges of motion than typical weights training programs would...
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Bodywork on Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:24 pm

Chris Fleming wrote:Hey I'm open to learning more and am not completely "set in my ways".

Still though, I have to look at it rationally. The masters of old were mostly farmers. They "strength trained" every day. And then they had to do their "internal" practice. If they weren't farmers and had a business, say a lumber business, we have to remember that life was different from modern times today. If you got a shipment of lumber to your shop to unload, there was no forklift to unload it. You are picking up that shit yourself. Life was different, and we live in luxury compared to back then. Look at Ueshiba. He would make over sized tools for himself just so he could have even MORE "resistance training" as he farmed. His sword work drills were all about building more strength. Yet his internal power was legendary and even a grab, much less a strike was said to be like getting struck by lightening. I don't think anyone is going to accuse him of being stiff and off balance either.

Using Ueshiba as a model is interesting in that he got his power from Daito ryu. The same style I trained in. Then he went off and invented Aikido. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to find anyone with any serious degree of power in that art today. In DR of those who got any serious level of internals all were known to experiment and train in any manner of solo training and paired resistance training to strengthen what they had. As for Ueshiba’s weapons work? It is the same thing, its all about structure not muscle building. I train in a Japanese Koryu with swords, spears, naginata etc. There is no training for “strength” with the weapons, or cutting with the hips and all the other bullshit you read about here and there. It is structure…period. It was the only way to wear armor, wield weapons, and keep moving, all day long.

Where I disagree with ya'll here about lifting is what is being trained WHILE lifting. I’m not training my muscles to contract and pump while lifting heavy objects, or working with cables, or training with iron digging bars. I’m training my body to maintain structure and contradictory forces AND NOT FLEX ANY ONE THING while under loads that are intended to break my connections. Flexing and muscle building doesn't have a freaking thing to do with it. Its not muscle building, its muscle preventing!!
That said, the mass gained can still be detrimental to the gain if you don’t know what you are doing and what to counter. I then stop for extended periods to fix the inherent damage. In the balance the internal connection training is the real power. The weight training is the mass I learn to move. And I would never train to gain much in the way of large mass, at a point it is a negative on the system. Held contradictory forces leads to better weight transfer and sustained equilibrium. One that most cannot break either in attack or defense. You move through people while maintaining that state and displace them. It is thee reason people try to throw you and can't, they're fighting a center they simply can't get a handle on and they get thrown. And when you choose to move or hit- it is with a much higher percentage of mass and they get slammed. Again if you don’t know how to grapple then ....er..good luck with using even a highly trained body against someone who does. They will own your ass. They may comment on how strong or tough you are, or how hard you hit, but they will own you none-the-less.
However, if you train these skills and also learn to fight-say in grappling? Good luck to anyone who tries to throw you or gets close enough to get hit by you. I break people. Most people don’t let me hit them more than once. It's not about technique, you can feel flexation and muscle firing in their bodies, they have slack and poor connection, which they make up for in flexation. Flexing is a first step in "getting" Kuzushi on anyone. But relaxation for many is a trap, as most guys have nothin when they relax. They're a bag o shit and you can blow right through em. A relaxed connection that has no inherent slack and maintains the mass spread over the entire surface in held equilibrium is extremely difficult to "have." Its like attacking a giant shock absorber, that is ever moving. You can't find the center, and when you load it, it can either dissapear on you or send that force flying back at ya with a vengence, in either a counter throw or a strike.
I don’t concern myself with convincing folks. Yaking is fun and sometimes interesting, but the proof is in the pudding. I’d rather just train myself, my guys and the visitors to my dojo, and occasionally go out and play with like minded researchers and keep growing. Life’s to short to argue over something like Budo.
Last edited by Bodywork on Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Bhassler on Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:19 pm

Basically what you've just described is what a lot of people like to refer to as a Tensegrity structure (although I'm not convinced that technically it is one), but is also akin to the use of bandhas in hatha yoga, what's referred to as contrast in Gyrotonic, what's referred to as axial elongation in Pilates, etc, etc. FWIW, the western medical term would be a co-contraction. So there's no great mystery or rocket science to it, nor is it (based on your description) particularly rare as a practice, although folks who have trained it to a functional level of gung fu to where they can use it spontaneously under extreme duress are relatively rare, I agree.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it in several different ways, and clarify as stuff comes up.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Bodywork on Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:28 pm

I think we could also say you just described your understanding of what you think I meant. Or what you know I meant that I don't know I meant. 8-)
I've had any number of folks tell me I was doing this or that that they knew, who themselves couldn't do squat to me or with me. On the other hand I had a Taiji grandmasters hands all over my body testig me while I was moving, telling me I was doing Taiji with my body, and that he wanted to train me, and invited me to come live with him in China and train. I'm simplistic. I'm doing DR internal training in my body. It's all I know. I' "hear you" that some of these basic aspects of strengthened central equilbrium through contradictory forces, trained through structure and intent is everywhere and many people know it. I just don't believe its true that all that many have any real applied knowledge in practical use. And that is just the basic stuff. I keep "hearing" all kinds of things regarding what folks know and have been taught intellectually.
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Re: Internal Training and External Conditioning

Postby Chris Fleming on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:17 am

I don't see this as an argument, even if you do. I find it interesting. That said, you've repeatedly mentioned how deadly you are with your abilities, perhaps you can give an example of this applied in practical use.

For instance, can you squat 315 w/o flexing any muscles and just using "structure"? That weight would naturally be trying to break your structure. I would certainly love to see that.
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