Internal Training and External Conditioning

[TaoJoannes]

lots sex if possible.
.

Although the negative effects of oversex vary from person to person, it'd still be a good idea to regulate sex life and not to over indulge.

According to Chinese medical theory, too much sex drains the kidney of its essence and effects the bone. Other side effects include weak knees, ringing in ear, oversweating, decreased level of energy and endurance, back pain, etc.

By Kidney do you mean the kidney, or the "kidney"?

[TaoBoxer]

Just sounds like the same ol thing to me though...... Don't lift weights or you'll never do Taiji correctly..... I don't buy it. My first Taiji teacher was an athlete. I saw pictures of him doing the Iron Cross on the rings when he was in college. It seems like a lot of the older teachers I meet who grew up in the 1920's and 30's were all quite athletic, as the "physical culture" ethos was very strong.

Truth is most of my technique is cleaner than it ever mas been. My connections are strong and my structure is sound. I don't really talk about the Qigong we do outside of the Kwoon, but I think I'm pretty on-track with that as well. I think it would help if someone could show me exactly what it is I am missing out by becoming physically stronger and increasing my cardivascular conditioning along with my qigong/neigong/zhuan zhang?


Lewitt

[TaoJoannes]

I think the danger is that you may begin to rely more on raw muscular strength to compensate for technique.

If you've got it, use it, right?

[Walter Joyce]

Just sounds like the same ol thing to me though...... Don't lift weights or you'll never do Taiji correctly..... I don't buy it. My first Taiji teacher was an athlete. I saw pictures of him doing the Iron Cross on the rings when he was in college. It seems like a lot of the older teachers I meet who grew up in the 1920's and 30's were all quite athletic, as the "physical culture" ethos was very strong.

Truth is most of my technique is cleaner than it ever mas been. My connections are strong and my structure is sound. I don't really talk about the Qigong we do outside of the Kwoon, but I think I'm pretty on-track with that as well. I think it would help if someone could show me exactly what it is I am missing out by becoming physically stronger and increasing my cardivascular conditioning along with my qigong/neigong/zhuan zhang?


Lewitt

Truth is I have never fully resolved the issue of how and where weight training fits into internal training. Part of me thinks the admonitions against it are well founded, and part of me thinks that if you are going to do resistance training the kettle bells and similar methods are the way to go.

Athleticism doesn't require resistance training, although modern theory seems to be that it is a good baseline for almost any exercise.

The reason I posted what I did is in the post, I know both of you, and you don't appear to have met each other. I have respect for each of your abilities, for different reasons in in different ways, bot those differences aren't relevant.

But because you don't know each other there seemed to be a misunderstanding on your part as to where Bodywork was coming from and who he is. He was in great physical condition when I met him and also seemed to possess a very practical working knowledge of internal strength.

While I have figured out some parts of the internal strength puzzle, I haven't figured out all of it, and weight training is an issue that does appear to be a dividing line. Maybe both methods can lead to effective skills, but I'd bet those skills would have a very different flavor or feeling, if you will.

[Bhassler]

.

[TaoBoxer]

I'm certainly not trying to be argumentative..... I'm really trying to figure out what the right mix is.... I'm certainly not "musclebound" and I do undestand the "if you develop raw strength, that's all you'll use," but I just can't but into "exercise will hurt your kung fu.

Bodywork (Derek???"), What is it exactly you're refering to when you say "develop internal power?"

Lewitt

[Walter Joyce]

Derek is 8gua, Bodywork is Dave, iirc.

[Chris Fleming]

If you're talking about weightlifting and thinking "body building", I can understand how people would say that it is a negative on your internal development. But, if you're thinking "strength training" when you say weight lifting, then this style of weight lifting will only help your internal development.

[C.J.Wang]

Bagua has many external conditioning methods invovling the use of weighted object. Besides possessing high-level skills, Bagua masters of the past were also known to be extremely strong and powerful. They are good examples of how internal and exteranl trainings go hand in hand.

[johnwang]

Did "internal" guy have to fight in the battle field in the old time? Do you need "external" strength when you sit on the horse back and swing your 50 lbs Guan Dao and trying to chop your enemy's head off? Do you need strength to open your 50 lbs bow in order to shot your arrow 500 yards away? This is why the word "internal" starts to get so popular when people no longer need to use their cold weapon and fight for their life.

If you cannot life heavy stone lock or pull open a strong bow (basic military testing), you can't even be qualified to be a military general in the ancient time.

[Interloper]

Just lifting heavy weapons to use them, and wearing heavy armor, will build strength without any specialized exercises beyond... just the natural course of lifting and wearing. But beyond that, what if a refined combatant learned to wield that weapon with more economy of motion using internal power? When having to cut an armored enemy, wouldn't there be an advantage if, when targeting the gaps where armor couldn't cover (the joints --- elbows, neck, wrists, knees, glutes, etc.) you had the ability to use structure and internal power-generated skills to cut fully and deeply, with better precision than a gross-motored swing, using minimal momentum and effort? Instead of a big windup to build momentum to cut, what if you could effect a cut without a large movement, and even from "point blank"?

Building muscle can be beneficial in simply giving you more body mass to use to propel into an opponent, but doing the wrong forms of muscle-building can lead you to develop a lot of bad habits, particularly in firing certain muscle groups when you shouldn't be using those muscles at all to effect internal movement and power. There are certain ways you can use weights to develop the former without the negative effects of the latter, but most people seem to get enamored of the wrong kind of lifting because they are addicted to feeling "strong."

[Chris Fleming]

Did "internal" guy have to fight in the battle field in the old time? Do you need "external" strength when you sit on the horse back and swing your 50 lbs Guan Dao and trying to chop your enemy's head off? Do you need strength to open your 50 lbs bow in order to shot your arrow 500 yards away? This is why the word "internal" starts to get so popular when people no longer need to use their cold weapon and fight for their life.

If you cannot life heavy stone lock or pull open a strong bow (basic military testing), you can't even be qualified to be a military general in the ancient time.

Excellent points.

What was once explained to me was that the whole "internal" and "external" thing used to just refer to martial arts trained within China and outside of China. The arts trained within China were "internal" to China (that is, to the Chinese) and everything practiced outside was considered "external" to China and there was a connotation of those arts being not as good. Regardless of the validity of that notion, the point is that it wasn't until relatively recent times (Sun Lu Tang's era) that the whole "internal" martial arts became known as what they are today. The need to separate the actual arts regardless of what they actually were was not important when you life was on the line.

[johnwang]

There are certain ways you can use weights to develop the former without the negative effects of the latter, but most people seem to get enamored of the wrong kind of lifting because they are addicted to feeling "strong."

If you use your weight training to develop your "speed" then you are moving toward the right direction, otherwise you may not use your weight correctly. You can notice that no matter light weight (sc15.wmv) or heavy weight (sc20.wmv), you need to do it in "full speed". If you follow this guideline then you are not just trying to "feeling strong". I had tried to exchange this idea with many gym trainners but nobody seem to understand what I was talking about. In SC21.wmv you can see that form training and equipment training can be integrated into one.

http://johnswang.com/sc15.wmv
http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv
http://johnswang.com/sc21.wmv

I don't believe any "body building" guys do training like this.

[Chris Fleming]

They certainly don't.

I was reading an article on T-nation that mentioned "full speed". I believe it said something like when using a very heavy weight you may not be able to lift it quickly or explode, but you do need to have the same intent. That's what matters.

[johnwang]

when using a very heavy weight you may not be able to lift it quickly or explode, but you do need to have the same intent. That's what matters.

The main point is that if you want to train MA ability by using weight, you should not use "too much weight". If you do, you have to slow down your movement and you won't be able to develop that explosive power that's needed in MA application.