跤好撂,手难学 - easy to learn throws, hard to learn grip fight

[johnwang]

Do you agree with these statements?

- 输跤不输把, It's OK to lose in throwing but it's not OK to lose in grip fight.
- 跤好撂,手难学, It's easy to learn throws but it's hard to learn grip fight.

[ppscat]

My skills are not good enough to answer those questions.

Instead I ask you why chin-na is not used in SC, as far as I could "research" on videoclips? Is it dismissed because (I guess) is difficult to apply in a more realistic combat? Or just a sport rule to prevent injuries?

Thanks!

[Fubo]

Do you agree with these statements?

- 输跤不输把, It's OK to lose in throwing but it's not OK to lose in grip fight.
- 跤好撂,手难学, It's easy to learn throws but it's hard to learn grip fight.

I'd agree that setting up the throw is much harder than the throw.

[Fubo]

My skills are not good enough to answer those questions.

Instead I ask you why chin-na is not used in SC, as far as I could "research" on videoclips? Is it dismissed because (I guess) is difficult to apply in a more realistic combat? Or just a sport rule to prevent injuries?

Thanks!

Chin-na is used in many combat sport competitions, including BJJ, judo, sub grappling, mma etc... It just mostly happens when both people are on the ground.

[C.J.Wang]

I wonder if "把(ba)" could be translated simply as "grip fight." In Northern CMA terminology, "ba" has multiple meanings depending on the context in which it's used. In the case of SC, I think it also carries the idea of "obtaining superior hand/body position."

[johnwang]

Instead I ask you why chin-na is not used in SC, as far as I could "research" on videoclips? Is it dismissed because (I guess) is difficult to apply in a more realistic combat? Or just a sport rule to prevent injuries?

There is also another saying said, "巧拿不如痴打 - precise chin-na is still not as good as stupid punch". In SC match if a person can use chin-na on his opponent, his skill must be much higher than his opponent. Also SC rules prevent some of the small locks such as fingers and wrist, but lock on neck, shoulder, and elbow are OK if you have the ability to do it.

I wonder if "把(ba)" could be translated simply as "grip fight." In Northern CMA terminology, "ba" has multiple meanings depending on the context in which it's used. In the case of SC, I think it also carries the idea of "obtaining superior hand/body position."

I believe "obtaining superior hand/body position" is exactly what you want to achieve in grip fight.

[Andy_S]

Interesting question.

I like John's comment about good qinna not being able to beat a poor punch. This certainly seems to be born about by almost all contact fighting competitive formats. Indeed, in MMA, the only time you see a lock is on the ground. Now, in Judo one very occassionally DOES see an arm lock successfully applied in the standing game - but in in Judo, there is no striking. As locking generally requires two arms on one, the lockee's free arm can strike while the locker is applying.

As for gripping and throwing: Not sure what you are getting at, but from a Taiji perspective:

A lot of people ask, "How is the Taiji throwing PH competition different from SC?" IMHO the difference is in PH competition, they do not wear the jacket, and either do not permit, or do not encourage, a strong, locked-on grip to the arm or the clothing.

On the plus side, this allows for a "looser," more "live" hand - encouraging listening and changing, key concepts in IMA.

On the negative side, it means many Taiji people are unpracticed at dealing with a grip - a very, very common attack and/or prelude to an attack.

I see many, many Taiji applications demonstrations where the 'attacker' places his hand lightly on the opponent's chest and is then locked, pushed away, etc. Responses such as pushes simply do not work if the attacker has got a firm grip, especially on the breast of your clothing. D

Donn Draeger (or perhaps Robert Smith) wrote of Donn's meeting with a Taiji master in Malaysia. Donn locked on, Judo-style, and the Taiji master gave him a push. Unfortunately, Donn had not let go....they both went flying; as he went backward, Donn sat down and threw the guy with a sacrifice throw by planting his leg in the Taiji master's paunch. While such tactics are not allowed in PH competition, it is pretty clear to me who 'won' that little encounter.

[ppscat]

John, Fubo, Andy, thanks for your answers.

Isn't "precise grip is still not as good as stupid punch" valid too?

[everything]

what, other than actual grip fighting, do you think helps the most with grip fighting - not static grip strength, but the dynamic aspect - fast hands, feints, initial grips that set up the desired grip, breaking grips, etc, etc. any other good exercises you like for practicing that - either solo or partner work?

[johnwang]

Use

- 圈 under hook to counter head lock.
- 抄 over hook to counter bear hug.
- ...

All the grip fight skill are shown in David C. K. Lin's book Chan-Chiao Theory (The Art and Science of Combat Shuai-Chiao). The "Butterfly Hands" includes total of 30 hand techniques:

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/merchandise.html

Tearing (SI), Cracking (BENG), Striking push (TONG), Hand pushing

(TUN), Elbow pressing (ZHOU) 撕崩捅褪肘

Covering hands (GAI), Pulling hands (LUO), Body-shaking hands

(YAO), Reverse arm-holding (DAO), Shaking (DOU) 蓋攞搖捯抖

Separate hands (FEN), Hand clamping (YE), Arm guiding (YIN), Arm

raising (PENG), Elbow Locking (JIA) 分掖引捧架

Under hook (QUAN), Over hook (CHAO), Wiping (MO), Head circling

(PIAN), Clamping head (JIA) 圈抄抹偏夾

Helmet taking (ZAI), Face covering (WU), Forehead push (SU),

Sticking drop (ZHUI), Leg seizing (LAO) 摘摀速墬撈

Neck surrounding (HUAN), Chin pushing (TUO), Throat/waist

blocking (FENG), Casting (SA), Floating hand (PIAO) 環托封撒飄

[BruceP]

- 输跤不输把, It's OK to lose in throwing but it's not OK to lose in grip fight

Agree

Tomoe-nage and other 'sacrifice' throws are often predicated off of the opp's attack. Counter-rotation is an effective way to use the opp's throw against them.

- 跤好撂,手难学, It's easy to learn throws but it's hard to learn grip fight

Disagree, somewhat.

IME, some guys (fishermen, farmers, loggers, climbers) have freakish grip strength and innate agility. Once they're aware of certain dangers, grip fighting comes easy to them.

[Fubo]

I see grip fighting as one aspect of setting up the throw, but an important and difficult one. Other important aspects could be timing, tricking the person into vulnerable positions, building momentum, entering/changing into position while maintaining control, of course achieving dominant grips etc... I see all these things as much more difficult to achieve then the finishing throw.

[Kurt Robbins]

The word grip usually just implies the strength of holding on to something with the hand, so if in this circumstance grip extends into an expanded definition then I'm ignorant about it, so I apologize now.
With grip, like that used in throwing, for instance on the heel, legs, hips, wrist, elbows, shoulders and neck designed to throw, or you have the grips that are used for a clinch to grapple in order to launch strikes like elbows, knees and some dirty boxing concepts (like upper cuts and shoulders). The grip of course is dependent on strength for control, but the dynamic of manipulating the opponent’s body to disrupt or off balance it in order to either throw or launch strikes I believe is synonymous with grip. Grip and body control within my experiences go hand and hand and again may already be included in said definition of grip.
As far as throws being easier to grip I think is a personal opinion like Shooter mentioned some people enter in with a good understanding or talent of either throwing or grip. I believe with out grip you won't have good throwing or good clinch control so I feel both are synonymous and both are learned with different varying degree of difficulty depending on the individuals understanding.

[johnwang]

You may get a Judo book and learn the "hip throw" in 2 or 3 days but "How to create a chance to apply your hip throw" may not be that intuitively in any striking combat environment.

[Kurt Robbins]

Your right, you'll need to combine the parts to get a whole. Intuition can only take you so far.