How Yin are you?

[johnwang]

break even a very strong persons grip with the right movement vectors and mechanics,

The taiji way is to basically apply light pressure to, or to put a solid structure in front of, the place the opponent would like to move, at the point where the opponent's power is too new to move the obstacle out of the way. If the opponent can muster more power, you simply move the obstacle to another place and start sapping it there, or you deflect into a finish of some sort.

All grip can be broken if you just turn your wrist into the direction that's against your opponent's thumb joint.

The grip is no more than a "hook" tool that we use in our daily life. There is nothing magic about it.

[TaoJoannes]

And that's basically what I'm saying.

if you ever did D&D, or even that Mech Warrior game, you're familiar with the idea of making choices to optimize for certain qualities. You can either carry more ammo and move slower, or you can choose between intelligence or charisma for your three sixes, but you can't have both.

If I've learned anything, ever, it's that you can't have everything, so you may as well invest in what's going to pay off the longest, which is why I believe in this whole yielding thing so much. Strength has its limits, but weakness is limitless.

[somatai]

exactly half

[johnwang]

There is a great grip exercise.

- You use both hands to grab on your opponent's wrists.
- Your opponent rotates both hands from outside in and break both of your grips and then grab on both of your wrist.
- Your repeat ...

If you repeat this 100 times as your basic training drill everyday then not only your grip can be stronger, you are also good at breaking your opponent's grip.

[C.J.Wang]

In Bagua, grabbing is a way of connecting with the opponent. The idea is that, for a split second, you literally join body with the opponent to effect his structure and balance instantly; the focus is not on the hand or just the part being grabbed. If you fail to control the opponent completely through the contact point, then he'd still be able to counter the grab easily with the rest of the body.

[SitYodTong]

My girlfriend is about to graduate with her master's degree in Traditional Chinese Medicine and acupuncture. Over the last 3 years I have been poked, prodded, and stuck with more needles than I care to count.

According to TCM I am "Yang liver rising" or something. Anyway, according to her I am chock-full of the Yang.

[Toby]

tai chi chuan has something to do with the yin/yang symbol right? i think we all agree on that. most tai chi chuan people focus more on yin than they do on yang. why is that. after all the symbol that the art is based on is not the mostly yin symbol with a little yang. it transitions through equal/opposite amounts of yin and yang with a little of the other in each

...
I thought I was fairly relaxed and soft as a fighter but my perception was so far removed from the levels of relaxation that is needed for taiji. The theory is (and I agree with it) that the deeper you can relax or soften (become more yin, more receptive) then eventually that will lead to a deeper expression of yang energy as a natural result of the training.

Further on Bruce's point, the presumption on this forum (and from IMA on other fora) is that from yin comes yang. This personally doesn't make sense to me. In our school we train the opposite, from yang comes yin. As we learn, the yang side of the art is emphasised. After many years of training, a stage is reached where the rough edges are smoothed off and the movement becomes more fluid and natural. The power is still there, but the practitioner appears "relaxed" to a viewer. So we kind of view "yin" as "smooth", "efficient", "fluid", not as "soft".

I don't get the theory that the more soft and relaxed you are, the harder you'll hit (i.e. the more "yang" energy you'll be able to issue). It makes no sense whatsoever. We want to generate the maximum amount of force into our opponent and we will do that by building the most powerful machine we can, then refining that machine to issue its power in the smoothest, most efficient way. That's just the way we think about it anyway.

There could be many reasons, but the two that stand out are the notion that the concept of yin is harder to achieve in practice than yang and that a lot of people who are drawn to taiji are interested in this aspect, for a variety of reasons.

I would've thought the opposite, that "softness" is easier to achieve and that that's precisely why taiji appeals to the masses as a watered down health art. Because anybody can "practise" taiji, pensioners in the park can do it and it's a very easy low-impact, non-threatening, "yin" "sport" for them. Of course, whether they're actually doing taiji or learning a hollow shell of movements vaguely resembling taiji is debatable.

[johnwang]

In our school we train the opposite, from yang comes yin.

I share the same experience as you do. After I have wrestled for 15 rounds, all my Yin will come out automatically because I have no Yang left on me. I have to depend 100% on yield, sticky, Sung, follow, borrow force, ... all those good stuff. I'm forced to use my Yin to defend myself and that's the best way to learn how to use Yin.

"softness" is easier to achieve and that's precisely why taiji appeals to the masses as a watered down health art.

[charles]

I don't get the theory that the more soft and relaxed you are, the harder you'll hit (i.e. the more "yang" energy you'll be able to issue). It makes no sense whatsoever. We want to generate the maximum amount of force into our opponent and we will do that by building the most powerful machine we can, then refining that machine to issue its power in the smoothest, most efficient way. That's just the way we think about it anyway.

It isn't about softness or relaxation per se.

The object is to get all of the parts of the body working together.

[Toby]

So would you rather be hit by the full jug or the half empty jug?

What if you could get the full body coordination and all parts of the body contributing to the effort in conjunction with tension? What if the tension reinforces the structure where if there was no tension the structure might collapse if not perfectly aligned? What if you could use maximum tension in alignment with the movement you want to make, i.e. no harmful, restrictive tension holding you back, only tension applied as necessary to apply maximum speed, acceleration, power to your attack - would full tension be bad in that case?

And lastly, I think that a common theme seems to be avoiding the stiffness caused by unnecessary/excessive muscle tension so people think they need 0% muscle tension. How can the body even move with 0% muscular effort? If it's not necessary to use 0%, how do you judge what the minimum amount of effort is? And does that change in response to the size and effort of the opponent?

[C.J.Wang]

I think the reason many people frown upon the use of tension and hardness is because they relate those two attributes to brute force and use of segmented body strength.

However, for a high-level internal stylist with strong core/tendon strength who knows how to generate whole-body power by utilizing structure, tension and hardness can co-exist with relaxation and softness.

Take the Bagua system I practice for example, the way I have been taught and trained is to keep the body like a piece of coiled, flexible steel. When I hit, I expand/extend my structure to connect with the opponent. My muscle feels relaxed, but the joints and tendon are stretched solid and tight. With the relaxed muscle, I can still yield, neutralize, and react rapidly. The opponent would feel like he's fighting against an extremely heavy, hard, and springy ball when all I do is maintaining my frame hidden beneath the outer layer of soft muscle.

[Walter Joyce]

Toby,

Before I reply to your post I'd like to understand where you're coming from so let me ask you.

What do you currently study?

How long have you been training?

Knowing these two things would be helpful before I respond.

WTJ

[Toby]

What do you currently study?

Xing yi and wing chun primarily.

How long have you been training?

Not sure. More than 6 years and less than 8.

[Walter Joyce]

1. I don't get the theory that the more soft and relaxed you are, the harder you'll hit (i.e. the more "yang" energy you'll be able to issue). It makes no sense whatsoever. We want to generate the maximum amount of force into our opponent and we will do that by building the most powerful machine we can, then refining that machine to issue its power in the smoothest, most efficient way. That's just the way we think about it anyway.

2.

There could be many reasons, but the two that stand out are the notion that the concept of yin is harder to achieve in practice than yang and that a lot of people who are drawn to taiji are interested in this aspect, for a variety of reasons.

I would've thought the opposite, that "softness" is easier to achieve and that that's precisely why taiji appeals to the masses as a watered down health art. Because anybody can "practise" taiji, pensioners in the park can do it and it's a very easy low-impact, non-threatening, "yin" "sport" for them. Of course, whether they're actually doing taiji or learning a hollow shell of movements vaguely resembling taiji is debatable.

Thank you for answering my two questions. In response I'd first like to say that there is more than one path to the right result. I've labeled the issues above to make it clearer what issue I'm addressing.

Issue 2. You're right in that the softer or yin aspects of taiji are what draw most people who practice taiji who are not interested in its martial side. But as you also noted, if you define taiji as a martial art, the question in their training remains whether or not it is taiji quan they are practicing. If you define taiji as a martial art, and for purposes of this discussion I am, then the answer is no, without the martial aspect its not true taiji.

Also, if you define the highest level of taiji as the achievement of both the spiritual and the martial, then these "non-martial" taiji practitioners are not at the highest level. (See my post here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=141&start=135 for the source of this idea).

When I wrote what you quoted above my intended audience was the members of this board, who for he most part ARE interested in the martial side of taiji and may of whom, like myself, come to taiji with a background in other arts that do emphasize the Yang energy. For these people the softness or relaxed/alive state (sung) that is the basis of taiji training is much harder to achieve.

Issue 1. What I have found in my training, which as I stated before started with more physical based training based one "external" strength or methods, is that by pursuing only the Yang aspects I was limiting my potential. If Yang is hard, which I associate with tense, then at least half of the potential power in my strikes was being held back by tension. Even by relaxing to a lesser degree than is required by taiji I was able to increase that striking power.

If you look even at how boxers are trained, it is common knowledge that once a fighter has established power through "Yang" type training, the ability to relax is key to releasing their full power potential. So yes, like you now train, Yang training can lead to Yin, if you let it.

I have never advocated only "internal" training for martial arts, I agree that there is a need for basic strength and athleticism if you want to fight, the question then becomes, how do you build those aspects.

When I finally met what I refer to as "authentic" internal martial artists and masters I noted that the power that they could deliver felt very different than anything I had ever felt, and was also more powerful than I ever felt. It was this that convinced me to explore the "internal methods", which as for most were just variations on standing meditation and breath exercises. It was though these methods that I began to fell a much deeper relaxation, which enabled me to find my structure of natural relaxed alignment. at that point my power increased even more, but more importantly, required less effort on my part. The added benefit of improved health and vitality was nice too.

So, where am I going with this?

As has been discussed on many thread before, you are right in that Yang practice/skill can lead to Yin if the practitioner makes a conscious effort to truly train and understand Yin .

And the corollary of that is that Yin practice/skill can lead to deeper Yang Yin if the practitioner makes a conscious effort to truly train and understand Yang .

Which is consistent with the underlying theory of Yin and Yang, as I understand it.

So if you prefer Yang training, then enjoy it, but I do believe, as my own practice has shown me, that unless you strive to understand its opposite/complementary energy you will not reach your true potential.

Simple example: we need to work (Yang) to achieve things in this life, but without proper rest (Yin), we can not work to our true potential.

The deeper the rest, the deeper we can throw ourselves into the work.

[Doc Stier]