Test Cutting - historical basis?

[johnwang]

I don't see there is any difference beside the looks.

The outward design may give your opponent an easy leverage to use to against you. The downward design will force your opponent's sword to slide off instead.

[Robert Young]

I don't see there is any difference beside the looks.

The outward design may give your opponent an easy leverage to use to against you. The downward design will force your opponent's sword to slide off instead.

To tell the truth, the situation would happen only when you try to block against other weapon directly or you let other weapon to block directly on your sword. We were taught and trained not to get trapped into that kind of situation. Like I mentioned earlier, the usage of Jain is to try to avoid the attack and count as those shown in San Cai 2 man form. What happens if you have to deal with heavy weapon and you block directly with Jian? Even a staff can knock off the Jian you hold easily no matter what kind of guard it is.

Practicing CMA weapon is learn to fight against any weapon, not just to fight against the same kind of weapon like most people think today. That is what I mentioned about the mind set.

In a book Jian Ron-Qiao wrote on Qing-Ping Jian, he mentioned that Jian has no block on the head, meaning don't raise sword to block over the head when other weapon hit you on the head. If the other weapon is Jian than it would not be a big deal, but if the attacking weapon is heavy weapon like staff, then there is no way you can counter it because you are using one hand against two hand with much heavier weapon. So, the mind set to think about fighting against all different weapons is quite different from fighting the same weapon. This mind set is also the most difficut thing to manage in term of Jian.

Even in this book, the author mentioned that general Lee Jin-Ling showed him a Jian to reproduce. The author made a few Jians similar to the one general Lee showed him and each one was about 1.2 斤, about 1.5 lb. With such a light weapon, you really need to think about how you can use it to deal with heavy weapons.

That is why Jian emphasize so much about "Shen Fa", body movement method, more than any other weapons. That is also why CMA saying about "Dao Zou Hei, Jian Zou Qing" like I mentioned earlier. Our ancestor came up with many MCA sayings to remind us what to focus and what to avoid, so that we can get the most of out the it.

Cheers,

[taiwandeutscher]

I get confused here. What shenfa is needed when you only use the wrist?
And a Taiwanese Jin is 600g, so 1.2 Jin is 720g.
There are very good repros in a range from 600 to 900g, and to use those jian, shenfa is really needed.
For fotos and archeological sword finds all over China, there is a very complete book from Alex Huang-Fu: Iron and Steal in China.
The different handles, their rapping in sting ray skin or cotton knitting, different guards are also discussed in Scott Rodell's book and forum, without any subjectivity. That for the foreigners with attidude in Taiwan. Much of Chinese culture has been preserved in Taiwan, alright, but just look what Taiwanese have made of.

[johnwang]

What shenfa is needed when you only use the wrist?

For example, if your opponent stabs his sword at your chest, you step back to remain distance and at the same time you slide your sword at his wrist.

[Robert Young]

The different handles, their rapping in sting ray skin or cotton knitting, different guards are also discussed in Scott Rodell's book and forum, without any subjectivity. That for the foreigners with attidude in Taiwan. Much of Chinese culture has been preserved in Taiwan, alright, but just look what Taiwanese have made of.

First of all, I believe most people have good intention trying to learn and preserve what thay thing what CMA is. But, who they learned from and how much they have involved in CMA is the question. CMA is not something anyone can get a hand on in less than 10 years, no matter what system they are involve with. It took me alomost 35 years to get a feel of what LF supposed to be. And, I have been very cloesd to my teacher and my LF uncles all these years. So, to generize a CMA system is very difficult not to mention CMA as a whole. A simple example, northen CMA systems are almost opposite form southern CMA systems. The ways they train and they matereials they use are very different. Again, the mind set are almost opposite.

There are lots of things that Taiwanese did not learned from traditional Chinese culture. Sword smith is one of them. Taiwan is in the southern China. Most of the people in Taiwan, including me and my ancestors came form Fu-Jian, a southern Chinese province. The southern CMA is totally different form northern CMA, almost opposite in many aspects. Personally, I'm a Taiwanese, a southern Chinese. It took several years to get used to the thinking of LF which is northern CMA. Simple because I grew up in Taiwan where most people practice southern CMA. It took me more than 10 years, at least 5 out of 7 a week with my teacher in my youth to learn what LF can provide.

Anyway, I can understand your confusion. What you can do is stay with a prominent teacher and stay with him/her and learn everything, not only CMA but culture and the way they think. The culture and the mind set are most important ane difficult thing to learn actually.

Cheers,

[taiwandeutscher]

In fact, that was a rather polite remark not to offend you.

I have had the luck to work with a real traditional TJQ master here in Taiwan, for 18 years (from the early 80s to the end of the 90s, with a bit off in my homecountry), up to his passing. I have translated some 1200 Chinese pages of his writings into a western language, stayed after training from 6 to 9 for 6 days a week up to lunch, so I could ask all questions related.

Then I have a PhD in sinology and I'm married to a Taiwanese women for nearly 26 years.

After my teacher passed, I trained with other instructors, and now, as I moved down south, it seems that I have found another teacher, who might be willing to share all his knowledge with me and a fiew others.

You think, I have no idea what I talk about? Did you ever consider that your personal view on sword might by a bit narrow, by any means?

Just saying. Knowledge is not reserved for a very fiew nowadays. And lots of westerners work harder than the Chinese to preserve the arts.

[taiwandeutscher]

What shenfa is needed when you only use the wrist?

For example, if your opponent stabs his sword at your chest, you step back to remain distance and at the same time you slide your sword at his wrist.

In that case, Master Wang, I would call it a shenfa, yes, but I would use the momentum of the center to move the sword, togehter with the wrist snap, as I learned to initiate the snap from the moving center and not the wrist alone.

[Robert Young]

You think, I have no idea what I talk about? Did you ever consider that your personal view on sword might by a bit narrow, by any means?
.

I don't think so. That is why I try to use other masters' books and evidence from the national museum as fact to show people what Jian really is. Again, a differnt mind set from the begginning can change a concept to a totally different turn. Two people with two different mind sets learned from same teacher would have totally different understandings of the same art. I have seen it many many times from my younger LF brothers and in my teacher's generation, my LF uncles.

[Formosa Neijia]

Sorry but I look at it this way: Scott Rodell has produced several books and videos, is a prominent member of the biggest sword forum on the net, has his own smaller forum for more direct questions, and has done more than anyone other single person to bring good CMA sword training information to the masses.

And what have his critics done? Criticize. Besides that, they've done nothing.

Tearing down is easy but creating is hard. So I'll take Scott's opinion over everything else until I see something better.

Dave C.

[johnwang]

This discussion just remind me a question that I asked a WC master many years ago. In the WC system, they have a staff form called 6 and 1/2 point staff. You hold one end of the staff and use the other end to attack. My question to that WC master was, "Why don't you use both ends as everybody else does? If you want to use it as a spear then why don't you put a spear head on the other end?" He was not very happy about my question (as if I was challenged his style). he said, "The reason that we don't use spear head because it was forbidden in the ancient time." His answer didn't satisfy me because even if it was not allow to own a spear head in the ancient time (which I don't know it was true or not), today it will be perfect legal to put a spear head on your staff and nobody will stop you.

[edededed]

Not meaning to criticize Scott Rodell at all - no doubt he has done a lot for CMA in general - just looking for evidence for "shizhan" (from older books, etc.) from a historical standpoint. Lots of good discussion here, hope we can keep it amicable...

Interesting about the wing chun pole, didn't know that... Maybe it was originally a spear method?

[taiwandeutscher]

Yes, Dave, I agree with what you said. And let's not forget that Scott has handled some 2000 antique swords, so historic evidence is clearly on his side.
And btw, there are much more antique swords in several museums all around the world, which are on the heavy side, say over 800g, not many under 700g. In fact, I have been to the Palace Museum (is it the one in question?) serveral times and never saw such a light blade on display. But I know, they have too many artifacts to show at any given time, so they rotate the whole stuff again and again, and I could have missed it.
Concerning books, I also have a small library at hand, with enough evidence to hold it against the presented view. At last, they also represent the writer's view only, and my master has written on sword quite a bit, having studied in mainland, with strange people and at the Nanjing Guoshoguan.
I like Master Wang's approach, use both methods, what is exactly what I was taught, the short burst out of the wrist and the longer strokes, powered by the centre, teh dantian.

[Robert Young]

Ok, people are getting too emotional and out of control.

In the thread, I don't think I have said anything bad about anybody. I only discuss how thing supposed to work with Jian and how to interprete CMA Jian moves. I don't see edededed say bad things about anyone either.

Like John said, why don't people just try them all and see what happens? I have done that.

Concerning books, I also have a small library at hand, with enough evidence to hold it against the presented view. At last, they also represent the writer's view only, and my master has written on sword quite a bit, having studied in mainland, with strange people and at the Nanjing Guoshoguan.
.

Yes, they represented only their own view. The difference is that Jian Ron-Qiao was the dean of the education department in NanJIng GuoShuGuan. And, general Lee was the vice president of that Institute. I believe Guo Xi-San also taught in the same institute. Just for the story, general Lee Jin-Ling has a nick name called 劍仙, the god of Jian. He was well respected by the CMA masters at his time.

As the issue of museum, I just went there last December, the sword was displayed with other weapons in the metal weapon section. You can check the guide from the museum and they can show you where it is. The Jian with sheath in display was no torn that the museum did not dare to take out the sheath, but you can see the mental of the Jian. I was actually very supprised to see how thin the Jian was when I saw it the first time.

[taiwandeutscher]

No, Robert, not so emotional, just saying...

Let's keep it to agree that we disagree.

Best from Taiwan

[Martin]

i don;t knwo about historical but today, it makes sense to cut stuff up.. i have seen peopel with lots of blade formwork experience try and cut a cardboard tube and look shocked when the weapon comes out of their hands upon impact

Historically Britons have tested out dao on bannisters . . . or so I've heard.

Errr... hmmm. aaaahhhhh... ah do nut knoooo wat yoo arrre tacking abaaaout

(imagine Clouseau voice, if you will)