Test Cutting - historical basis?

[edededed]

I'm sure most of you have heard of Scott Rodell's test cutting (試斬) using Chinese swords - was wondering if anyone knows about historical background for this kind of training (that is, by any standard, not common in CMA currently)?

The word itself (shizhan) sort of jumps out at me, since it uses the same Chinese characters (but different reading) for the Japanese word of tameshigiri (also "test cutting").

Thanks!

[D_Glenn]

Don't know if this helps but I just watched "samurai rebellion" where in peace time the high-level samurai were basically just sword testers for what could almost be described as simple entertainment- cutting through a straw-man.

[edededed]

Ah - well, on that theme, today, this kind of thing occasionally is done on Japanese TV...

I saw one show showing a swordsman trying all sorts of objects - tatami rolls, but also various bottles, fruit, and so on... as well as attempting multiple successful cuts on the aforementioned tatami rolls. It was pretty entertaining as TV goes in Japan!

[Formosa Neijia]

My LF teacher worked with Adam Hsu to design the Adam Hsu jian made by CAS Hanwei. He told me that they often took the prototypes for the sword up in the mountains around Taipei and cut bamboo with the blades. So cutting is a part of the practice but IMO it's something that isn't taught widely. My teacher could obviously do it but I doubt he's ever taught it. It's one of those things where if you want this type of training, you have to go figure it out for yourself.

Rodell's new book on test cutting is excellent for that purpose.

Dave C.

[D_Glenn]

Google came up with this:

"Training in sword cutting techniques against targets, with a sharp blade, is the best way to correct edge angle and focus intent in our sword fighting moves. Test cutting with swords is called Shizhan in Chinese. It has historical precedents from the Qing Dynasty. Chinese warriors once trained in these skills using caoren, or grass men."

I guess the point I was trying to make in my first post is that they were cutting full sized shapes that resembled men made out of straw, twigs etc. (scarecrows).

[yusuf]

i don;t knwo about historical but today, it makes sense to cut stuff up.. i have seen peopel with lots of blade formwork experience try and cut a cardboard tube and look shocked when the weapon comes out of their hands upon impact

[RobP2]

Suspended plastic bottles filled with water, bamboo / straw, a friend of mine the other day reccomemned the big cardboard rolls you get inside a new carpet. Lots of things can be used, I guess people were at one time too.....

And ditto what Yusuf says, especially for knife work

[yusuf]

the cardboard tube is very interesting.. get a really thick walled one, fill it with earth, wrap it up in one layer of duct tape and some old clothes... then suspend it and try and cut through it...

[Michael Babin]

I don't know what was done historically in China for test-cutting; but, I have done the following with benefit:

For slicing with a jian, use pumpkins or watermelons that aren't too ripe as targets. Clean the blade immediately after your session if you are using a quality blade [fruit juice is acidic and etches metal very quickly]. This caveat is less important with cheap metal replicas but they are also difficult -- if not impossible -- to sharpen. Cheap blades are also liable to bend on impact in a way that won't happen with good technique and a good blade.

For thrusting with a jian, the above targets are just as applicable though it can be hard to secure them enough so that they don't get pushed off their support by your thrusts. Drywall sheets or remnants are also good for practising "poking" type attacks and the object is to make a clean hole not much larger than the blade tip. Again, with cheap blades be careful that you don't immediately put permanent bends into the metal when trying to thrust through a resistant target.

N.B. Don't practise with pumpklns or watermelons inside the house, if there is a chance the wife will come home earlier than she said! I learned this the hard way ...

[edededed]

Hmm - I guess I am looking for some kind of document evidence using the particular word "shizhan" - it is of course hard to confirm verbal transmissions (although that does not mean that they cannot be true), so I am hoping that there are some uses of this word somewhere...

[humbleboxer]

the test cutting used by "Master" Rodell looks to be something borrowed from Japanese swordsmanship. the Jian is a finesse weapon that is primarily used to attack vital points and ligaments/tendons. chopping is generally done with a curved weapon such as a Dao. "Master" Rodell learned the sword form from Wan Yien-Nien but seems to have added his own twist to the use of the sword. cutting bamboo is a good marketing tool but may detract from developing the subtle nature of the Jian.

[Robert Young]

the test cutting used by "Master" Rodell looks to be something borrowed from Japanese swordsmanship. the Jian is a finesse weapon that is primarily used to attack vital points and ligaments/tendons. chopping is generally done with a curved weapon such as a Dao. "Master" Rodell learned the sword form from Wan Yien-Nien but seems to have added his own twist to the use of the sword. cutting bamboo is a good marketing tool but may detract from developing the subtle nature of the Jian.

Exactly. Jian is a good weapon for many things but a poor weapen for chopping. That is why Chinese used Dao to cut criminals' head In the past.

Jian is a very finesse weapon like you said. It is usually too thin for Jian to chop. Its geometry just not design for chopping either. Yes, people can use jian to chop, but that does not mean it is good for it. Most people today have an image of Japanese Katana Chopping Bamboo, but they have never seen how people use Jian. So, Chopping become a first thing for people to try. It just happens that Jian is not used for that as main purpose like Kanata is. In many ways, the usage of Chinese Dao is much similar to katana. If people really want to chop thing, they should use Dao instead of Jian. The hand movements and body methods for handling a Jian is very different form those of Dao. So, test cutting on Jian is not a good approach from the very beginning. That is why there was no historical basis for Jain's cutting test.

Cheers,

[yusuf]

i don;t knwo about historical but today, it makes sense to cut stuff up.. i have seen peopel with lots of blade formwork experience try and cut a cardboard tube and look shocked when the weapon comes out of their hands upon impact

Historically Britons have tested out dao on bannisters . . . or so I've heard.

yes, that fukker Martin .. he also borrowed one of my dao and gave it back with a ding in the edge... apparently the result of beer fuelled duelling with a pair of silicon breasts.. or so i am led to believe

[humbleboxer]

Robert I agree with your points with a few exceptions. the hand and body move together as one piece not separately. the usage is different due to the physical differences of the swords such as shape, the cutting edges and the hand grip, but many of the movements are similar in both. these movements can be used for a variety of weapons or with "empty" hands.

[Formosa Neijia]

the test cutting used by "Master" Rodell looks to be something borrowed from Japanese swordsmanship. the Jian is a finesse weapon that is primarily used to attack vital points and ligaments/tendons. chopping is generally done with a curved weapon such as a Dao. "Master" Rodell learned the sword form from Wan Yien-Nien but seems to have added his own twist to the use of the sword. cutting bamboo is a good marketing tool but may detract from developing the subtle nature of the Jian.

I don't always agree with him either, but this seems to be a slightly unfair characterization of Rodell's work. He's not just chopping stuff like using the jian as a clever or something. You have to give him more credit than that.

Rodell has done a lot of good for the CMA community in terms of sword training and has made great contributions in that area. Plus, he uses his own name. So I would weight any criticisms against all that.

Dave C.