Test Cutting - historical basis?

[humbleboxer]

F.N./D.C., it is okay to disagree in a respectful manner, right? I agree that I revealed a little to much on my opinion of his sources, but my opinion of his usage was based on the information he presents. sticking with the technical points, it doesn't make much sense to me to use a Jian the way that was shown in the videos. it doesn't matter who is doing the "Bamboo cutting". just because someone says it is so doesn't make it so. I am open to learning something new if there is something that I am wrong about. feel free to provide more information on the importance or history of "Bamboo Cutting" for Jian training.

Charles W.

[Formosa Neijia]

F.N./D.C., it is okay to disagree in a respectful manner, right? I agree that I revealed a little to much on my opinion of his sources, but my opinion of his usage was based on the information he presents. sticking with the technical points, it doesn't make much sense to me to use a Jian the way that was shown in the videos. it doesn't matter who is doing the "Bamboo cutting". just because someone says it is so doesn't make it so. I am open to learning something new if there is something that I am wrong about. feel free to provide more information on the importance or history of "Bamboo Cutting" for Jian training.

Charles W.

I don't understand the point. Diagonal cutting with the jian is all over my sword forms. Cutting an object is just an extension of that.

If you look at my earlier post in the thread, I've already talked about how my teacher and Adam Hsu tested swords by cutting bamboo in the mountains around Taipei. Beyond that, I personally don't need any more info on the importance of the method. And I wouldn't try to convince someone else that they should do it, especially someone who doesn't think it's necessary. If you think it's not important, then there's lot of other things to practice, that's for sure.

Dave C.

[Robert Young]

Robert I agree with your points with a few exceptions. the hand and body move together as one piece not separately. the usage is different due to the physical differences of the swords such as shape, the cutting edges and the hand grip, but many of the movements are similar in both. these movements can be used for a variety of weapons or with "empty" hands.

I don't see there is any difference in our view.

[humbleboxer]

Robert, cool.

Dave, just because I don't think it is important doesn't mean it isn't. I am looking for practical information. on one level learning to cut with a sword is no different than hitting a bag to learn how to strike. on another level it may inhibit learning the proper way to use the sword. more information on usage of practice cutting with a Jian is what I would like. what are you testing? what is the target? what part of the blade? any information would be enlightening. my thinking is that the Jian is more of a precision weapon with tremendous wrist dexterity using only the top quarter of the blade length. generally chopping is done by a curved blade (Katana, Dao, Sabre, Machete, .....)the only thing I could see related to test cutting would be to chop off a hand. could a Jian cut through a body? what would happen if it didn't pass through the object?

[taiwandeutscher]

Even I'm not from Wang Yannian's Michuan Taijiquan group, I really like what I see from Scott Rodell. All his sword cuts are directly derived from the Yang Taiji sword, which I learned in 2 other Yang schools, and he differenciates clearly to the cuts used with the dao and within the dao forms.
I don't see any Japanese stuff in there (there might be similarities between Katana and Miaodao, though, even the later is much more lively, and those 2-handed reproductions, he also tests), and of course, the top of the blade, the super sharp part I prefer to test with paper or very think branches of Taiwanese bamboo. The middle section is allright for the shown test cuttings, Scott even provides the correct Chinese terms for the techniques, so I don't see any problem.
Those arise for me preparing "caoren" or roll wet tatamis, and mostly clean off the bamboo juices, powder, rub warm and oil the blade, before it is put to rest in it's scabbard again.

[Robert Young]

Even I'm not from Wang Yannian's Michuan Taijiquan group, I really like what I see from Scott Rodell. All his sword cuts are directly derived from the Yang Taiji sword, which I learned in 2 other Yang schools, and he differenciates clearly to the cuts used with the dao and within the dao forms.

Actually, the way he used to cut is more like Dao than Jian. It is really not how jian is practiced. Most of the jian usages are from the wrist, not arm. They way he cut is more arm power than wrist. Also, most of the Jian usage is from the top 3 inches. Although you can use jain to cut by using the 1/3 part from the tip of the body, the way to cut with jian is to cut forward because of the shape of the jian. On the contrary, because of the shape of the dao and katana, when you cut, you pull back when you hit the target. They are totally opposite in usage.

CMA has a saying, "Dao Zou Hei, Jian Zou Qing", Zou means usage. Hei is balck, meaning hard power. Qing is light, meaning to use precision, angle and techniques than power. The reason CMA has that saying is trying to distinguish the usage of jian and dao.

Cheers,

[johnwang]

Robert:

Since we are talking about Jian here. Let me ask a question. One time I gave a 三才劍 San Cai Jian demo in a Taiji event. The sponsor of that event said, San Cai Jian was not "internal" and should not belong to that event. Today I still don't understand what he was talking about. 天(Tian) - heaven, 地 (Di) - earth, 人(Ren) - men sounds pretty "internal" to me.

What's your opinion on this?

[Robert Young]

Robert:

Since we are talking about Jian here. Let me ask a question. One time I gave a 三才劍 San Cai Jian demo in a Taiji event. The sponsor of that event said, San Cai Jian was not "internal" and should not belong to that event. Today I still don't understand what he was talking about. 天(Tian) - heaven, 地 (Di) - earth, 人(Ren) - men sounds pretty "internal" to me.

What's your opinion on this?

From what I know, 三才劍 San Cai Jian was designed by the teachers in NanJian Guo Shu Guan. Among the teachers, most of them are XingYi, BaGua teachers like Sun, Lu-Tang and Zu, GuoFu. So, if this Jian form is not so called "Internal", then those "Internal" teachers are not teaching internal CMA. Then, most of the people today who practiced so called "internal" CMA are not practicing "Internal".

In Taiwan, we practice 三才劍 San Cai Jian, even though it is not our LF form originally. Actually, many people who practiced so called "Internal" came to our GM Han and my teacher to learn this Jian form because it is so well designed. A form is a form, if it is good then use it. It is that simple. Lien Bu Quan and Gong Li Quan are not our LF forms, but we adopt it and they became our LF forms.

I think people today are much more narrow minded than our ancestors.

Cheers,

[DeusTrismegistus]

Robert, cool.

Dave, just because I don't think it is important doesn't mean it isn't. I am looking for practical information. on one level learning to cut with a sword is no different than hitting a bag to learn how to strike. on another level it may inhibit learning the proper way to use the sword. more information on usage of practice cutting with a Jian is what I would like. what are you testing? what is the target? what part of the blade? any information would be enlightening. my thinking is that the Jian is more of a precision weapon with tremendous wrist dexterity using only the top quarter of the blade length. generally chopping is done by a curved blade (Katana, Dao, Sabre, Machete, .....)the only thing I could see related to test cutting would be to chop off a hand. could a Jian cut through a body? what would happen if it didn't pass through the object?

Humbleboxer,
You are right that a jian is not designed for chopping. However neither is a katana. When you shop you use the blade as a wedge to force apart something. Think of a meat cleaver, there is motion only in one plane and the motion drives the blade into the target. Katana and other cutting swords were designed not for chopping but for slicing. When you slice like with a carving knife you draw the length of the blade across the target. If you look at the pictures I have linked below the first two are designed for cutting and slicing, the third is more designed for chopping. Notice the chopping swords have a thicker blade at the tip, this is to put more mass behind the chop and strengthen that part of the blade.

I can't really add much to this discussion. However the usage of a sword is determined by the design. In general there are three types of swords. Those used for piercing, those used for cutting or chopping, and dual purpose used for both.

Cutting types




Piercing types


Dual Purpose




Now consider a jian and consider how the design would indicate usage.


To me the jian is primarily a thrusting sword that can also be used for slicing with the tip. It has more of a taper than most dual purpose swords but is not as narrow as a pure piercing sword. So the Jian would be a dual purpose sword leaning toward piercing IMO.

[Chowfarn]

Humbleboxer,
You are right that a jian is not designed for chopping. However neither is a katana. When you shop you use the blade as a wedge to force apart something. Think of a meat cleaver, there is motion only in one plane and the motion drives the blade into the target. Katana and other cutting swords were designed not for chopping but for slicing. When you slice like with a carving knife you draw the length of the blade across the target.

I'm sorry I don't agree with the statement about the katana.
Most cuts when you train with a katana is a chopping in action - the 'kote' cut (wrist) is for chopping it off.
Also in Japanese history - they are know for beheading a prisoner. They don't change swords or use an axe - its done with the faithful katana.
This action of chopping is why test cutting is such an important part of there training.

The main exception is the 'Do' cut (waist), which it is for disemboweling. The blade is sliced across the stomach.

What makes the katana such a power type of sword is that it combines the actions found in jian & dao techniques.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Humbleboxer,
You are right that a jian is not designed for chopping. However neither is a katana. When you shop you use the blade as a wedge to force apart something. Think of a meat cleaver, there is motion only in one plane and the motion drives the blade into the target. Katana and other cutting swords were designed not for chopping but for slicing. When you slice like with a carving knife you draw the length of the blade across the target.

I'm sorry I don't agree with the statement about the katana.
Most cuts when you train with a katana is a chopping in action - the 'kote' cut (wrist) is for chopping it off.
Also in Japanese history - they are know for beheading a prisoner. They don't change swords or use an axe - its done with the faithful katana.
This action of chopping is why test cutting is such an important part of there training.

The main exception is the 'Do' cut (waist), which it is for disemboweling. The blade is sliced across the stomach.

What makes the katana such a power type of sword is that it combines the actions found in jian & dao techniques.

I don't practice anything with a katana so I am only drawing my opinion from what I have seen, read, and what little I know of blade design. The curve the katana is what makes it so effective, this wouldn't be true if it chopped. That's just physics. Compare a katana to a machete or falchion which are chopping weapons, or to axes. A chop requires mass to drive through the target as its split like chopping wood, you won't get far if you try to chop through a tatami roll, the blade is naturally drawn back by the arc of the swing.

Oh apparently the way they used to test a katanas quality was to see how many men the blade could cut through in one swing. The best blades could go through 5 people!

[taiwandeutscher]

[quote="Robert Young
Actually, the way he used to cut is more like Dao than Jian. It is really not how jian is practiced. Most of the jian usages are from the wrist, not arm. They way he cut is more arm power than wrist. Also, most of the Jian usage is from the top 3 inches. Although you can use jain to cut by using the 1/3 part from the tip of the body, the way to cut with jian is to cut forward because of the shape of the jian. On the contrary, because of the shape of the dao and katana, when you cut, you pull back when you hit the target. They are totally opposite in usage.


Cheers,[/quote]

Hi Robert,
I still can't agree here, sorry.

In my different versions of Yang Taijijian, there are lots of techniques, which are driven by the whole body approach of Taijiquan, especially the liao methods, from the left oblique upwards, from the outside in, doing a half circle to the right back and up again, oblique. This is one of the basic cuts, we learned and had to drill for many hrs, in both directions, doing a bended 8 shaped curve. I still warm up with that technique and several more, also use those basic cuts on bamboo, with good results, as long as the angles are correct.

Of course, we have the snapping moves for slicing, of the wrists with a nearly 360° turn of the handle in one's hand, cutting down in a short burst, or the upward slicing in a small 45°, too, but the majority of the techniques in those forms are bigger.

Your proverb on sword versus sabre I know, too, but to interprete black as backward draw and clear as forward momentum is totally new to me.

Could there be such a big difference between TJQ and LF sword techniques or is the Taiji approach I learn here so far off from realistic application as many other trainings in the IMAs?

Grets from Taiwan

[Robert Young]

there be such a big difference between TJQ and LF sword techniques or is the Taiji approach I learn here so far off from realistic application as many other trainings in the IMAs?

Grets from Taiwan

There is really no difference between TJQ and LF sword techniques. We practice Yang's Tai Chi Quan and TaiChi sword too. Our Yang's TaiChi Quan was from Yang, ChenFu to my GM Han personally and our Tai Chi sword is from Lee JinLin to my GM Han personally. Both of them were the best representative masters in both fields. The difference between TJQ and LF sword is the training. LF has several sword forms and each form has its focus. We try to manage one form at a time. Our Tai Chi sword has only one form which pack lots of techniques into one. The techniques used in TJQ and LF are very similar actually.

The common situation is that forms passed down through several generations. After several generations, things got changed, especially Chinese Jian. There are a hugh different understanding even between my and my LF brothers under the same teacher. It all depends on how close and how long students stayed and communcated with the teacher. Jian is a very complicated weapon to understand. Jian is light, very light. You have to think totally different when you try to use it. My GM Han got a very good Jian as souveneer from winning (7th place) the CMA tournament in 1929 in Han Zou. The Jian he got can carried around the waist like a belt. It was very light, but tough. Anyway, the reason I mention this is to show you that Jian is light. When you use a light weapon, you can not use it to block directly with other weapons, especially heavy weapons like staff or even Dao. You basically try to avoid any blocking and counter. This will change all the think we normally have about weapons.

The Jian form San Cai Jian that John mentioned earlier is a very good evidence of how to use Jian in general. San Cai Jian form has 2 parts. the first half of the form can be use to practice against the second part as 2 man form. The whole 2 man forms has only one move that two swords stick to each other (they are not even blocking each other) and pushing each other, the rest of the moves are all avoiding the attack and counter without touch each other's sword. The form was designed by the best CMA masters in NanJin CMA Institute, so it has its credential.

Today, most people's assumption about Chinese Jian is that it should be heavier enough in order to cut through object. This assumption has its serious problem from the very beginning and it will change how you look at the moves and change how you think about how to use it. If the assumption is differnt, then everything evolved from it will be different.

There is another common mis-understanding about CMA weapons. CMA weapons are practiced to fight against any and all weapons. When you have a weapon, you need to think about how to use it against anything instead of fighting against the same weapon. This different mind set will also change how you learn and practice your weapons.

Cheers,

[johnwang]

The Jian he got can carried around the waist like a belt. It was very light, but tough.

I used to have a Jian like that. The sword color was very dark. It was not rusty and no matter how you want to polish it, it always keep in that color. It vibrates a lot when you use it.

Many people think that:

- Taiji sword should be slow,
- Bagua sword should walk in circle,
- XY sword should walk in straight line,
- Baiji sword should include Fajin,
- PM sword should have lighting speed,
- SC sword should include head down and leg up posture,
- TKD sword should be 1,2,3 and 1,2,3, and, ...
- MMA sword should include ground fight,
- Judo sword should include "grip fighting",
- ...

The whole 2 man forms has only one move that two swords stick to each other (they are not even blocking each other) and pushing each other, the rest of the moves are all avoiding the attack and counter without touch each other's sword.

When I learned that form in high school, I always wondered why there was not even a single move that was used in the movie that sparks come out of 2 sword hitting against each other.

Robert, Do you train Jian by touching the tip of the sword on a tree and rotate your waist to make circles while the tip of the sword remains contact on the tree?

[Robert Young]

Robert, Do you train Jian by touching the tip of the sword on a tree and rotate your waist to make circles while the tip of the sword remains contact on the tree?

No. But, I did train the move you mentioned a lot. I think that is how we call Jian Hua (flower) move. I used to do it in both hands 20 - 40 circles for warmup everytime I practice Jian form. Once in a while, I did longer for about 100 circles to train the strength of my wrist. I did use Jian to 點, "Dian", a target to train the acuracy.

Cheers,