train forms at lightening speed.

[mixjourneyman]

I know JW is an advocate of this and I want to ask some general opinions of people on here about this topic.

I just trained part of my five elements linking form as fast as I possibly could for five minutes and it felt like running at top speed for the same amount of time. My heart rate got up really high and I feel wiped out.
I think it would be good to do this as a cardio routine, but I thought that maybe it might make me lose details in the form.
Another benefit I can think of is that it is closer to the speed of actual fighting.
So in my opinion it has pros and cons.

What do you think the pros and cons of this are?

[WongYing]

Pro's, as you get more exhausted you have to relax and use the body to generate power more, it ingrains faster looser movement, and yes does help build more reflex muscle mapping memory

Cons...if you detail is poor or needs working on..it will make it much worse

I do both ways - fast and light, and slow work on structure, then bring that back into fast

[Chris McKinley]

It's good to practice very quickly on occasion to test the motor unit synchrony. However, moving at full speed will (not can) erode this synchrony, and can do so even within the course of a single training session. If your technique isn't already at 100% of where you want it to ultimately be, slow-to-medium speed training should be the mainstay of your practice, even if you are years into it. In fact, the slower you can practice, the faster your technique's precision will improve. Precision is mostly about the orchestrated firing of motor units. Slower training allows for more neuromotor activations per unit of time, resulting in both increased myelination of the motor nerves and stronger patterning of the engrams which represent that movement in the motor cortex of the brain. It also allows for greater synaptic associations of that engram with other stimuli, including proprioceptive feedback, with a much greater volume of that feedback per unit of time and per movement. This results in a far cleaner signal overall with a higher degree of unconscious correction of technique in real time from proprioceptive feedback.

It's much like comparing the early days of CD's to CD's produced now. In the early days, 16-bit sampling left a lot of music sounding 'digital' and lifeless to the ears of audiophiles. Gradually, as the sampling rates went up dramatically, the sound quality improved equally dramatically. You could also compare the phenomenon to the difference between a low-res and a high-res photograph in quality. Even if they are both photos of the same thing, the high-res picture will offer a clarity and precision that the low-res one can't, no matter how much you tweak it in Photoshop. For quality, it's always better to have at least a little more resolution than you actually need.

The same is true of combat skill coordination. In a real assault, the adrenal response will take an automatic cut off the top of your neuromuscular coordination unavoidably. If you have a significant surplus of it by ingraining the pattern through slower training, you will have a higher level of reserve after the adrenal dump. It really is that simple ultimately.

Fast training is fun, and the coupling of neuromuscular coordination with fast-twitch firing and also with endurance is something that must be done occasionally. However, maintaining that coupling is like keeping a fine edge on an already sharpened blade. Run it across the whet stone a couple of times a month and it will stay shaving sharp forever.

[Daniel]

That was a good post, Chris. Thanks.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[mixjourneyman]

Thanks both Chris and Wongying for your answers.
Certainly something to contemplate.

[dragontigerpalm]

That was a good post, Chris. Thanks.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

+1

[Teazer]

I'll train small snippets of a form at full speed repetitively - maybe two or three moves, but not the whole thing. Even for the two person forms, that's more checking your memorization than applicable skill.

[DeusTrismegistus]

It takes speeding up the forms to bring certain attributes into usable condition at higher speeds. If you can't do something at full speed in a form with no one attacking you chances are you can't do it at full speed in a unrehearsed setting while being pressured. I agree with Chris though that this isn't something you need to do often.

For Cardio fast is defenitely better though but for cardio you could also train a useless form that doesn't mimick combat movement so you can get your workout without worrying about that motor firing degredation stuff.

[jaime]

Speed is good, timing is everything.

[Daniel]

Speed is good, timing is everything.

...yeah, just a fun quote on that subject, from someone who might be worth listening to. I interviewed and trained a little with Uncle Bill, Willem DeThouars, of Kuntao and Silat, and he often has classes chant in the beginning: "Speed is not important. Timing is important."


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[WongYing]

If you have timing and speed then you have best of both

[Wanderingdragon]

Depends on what you want from your training. For IMA, training at lightning speed only comes with proficiency, the goal is total harmony, if you are sucking air when you finish, it means your breath is not coordinated with your movement, if you burn out before your opponent, your speed is of no significance, your power is dissipated. Lightning speed is only external training without this inner and outer harmony in coordination, though it is great conditioning, it is not good for your art until you reach this level. Internal arts still need to be externally conditioned it is just done in a different manner, slow is necessary for coordination , speed comes with skill, and even still, speed is a matter of sensitivity. Aerobically we seek a continual flow of air, the speed of our work should not affect the speed of our breath, only the amount of our intake.

[WongYing]

Agreed.

Depends on where you are with development

[Darth Rock&Roll]

I know JW is an advocate of this and I want to ask some general opinions of people on here about this topic.

I just trained part of my five elements linking form as fast as I possibly could for five minutes and it felt like running at top speed for the same amount of time. My heart rate got up really high and I feel wiped out.
I think it would be good to do this as a cardio routine, but I thought that maybe it might make me lose details in the form.
Another benefit I can think of is that it is closer to the speed of actual fighting.
So in my opinion it has pros and cons.

What do you think the pros and cons of this are?

pro - you realize where you break the flow, where you are forgetting and where you are not putting correct intention.

con - you will never fight using choreographed form.


summary: Forms are to be extrapolated upon and taken down to the parts.Tthese parts can then be drilled full speed and full power against devices (pads, jongs, etc), or in one on one situation (partner drills) and eventually into free sparring.

I would be more of an advocate of learning the structure through the form, then extrapolation, then muscle memory through continued use and practice until many of the parts in the form become the reactions you want when confronted with violence without having to give any thought to exactly what it is you will do to defend yourself and prevail during a violent conflict.

[Bao]

practicing coordination and speed are two very different things.

"Internal connection" is developed by carefully linking the body parts into a whole, coordinating the body in a rehersed manner.
Speed needs spontanity, and a freedom of the body. Using any rehersed movement will be counter-productive.

You can combine the practices. But I also think it is very important to practice speed separated from any other practice.

You can also use a stance, maintain an "idea" or a principle and let your body adjust itself according to your "yi".