Traditional Training For Modern Tournaments?

[cerebus]

Hey there. Just curious what you folks would have to say about this. My question is, would it be feasible to use ONLY traditional Chinese Kung Fu training methods (Zhan Zhuang, Basic Technique Training, Shen Fa Training, Chi Gung, etc) to train for modern full-contact (stand-up) tournaments (such as San Shou, Kickboxing, etc). Would you be able to develop all the necessary stamina, strength, power, etc, that modern fighters develop through running, skipping rope, circuit training, heavy bag, speed-ball, etc? And if it is possible, what would your program look like?

Now I know that there is no reason to HAVE to do such a thing. Ideally a combination of ancient and modern training methods would likely be best. This is just a theoretical question to see what other people can come up with for a "traditional only" training program that could accomplish the same effects as a "modern" training program. Thanks!

[I am...]

It would seem that it depends on what we consider traditional. In our training, we do a lot of demanding stuff, and we sweat a ton. I can't speak for how other arts are trained however. For instance, a judo guy may be able to up his training intensity and time spent on specific skills and hang in competition just fine. I don't know if the same could be said for your average Chinese Martial Artist. This also leads to another topic in a way though:

What about the people that practiced IMA that were farmers, blacksmiths, miners, etc.? Was their training not traditional because they were strong and in shape?

From my experience thus far, any full contact competition below pro level is going to be 90% conditioning, mindset and durability, with the remaining 10% encompassing skills. If you can't breathe, are out of your element, or are hurt more easily than the other guy, it is going to make it much tougher to do simple things like keep the hands up when you wish to, utilize timing in an advantageous way without hesitation, etc. This stuff should be a part of the training for any martial artist that hopes to fight, if not forever, at least long enough to develop a familiarity with what it feels like to be strong, confident, and not easily winded. Without the familiarity with it at the very least, it would be like tossing a land animal in the water with a bunch of sharks.

[GrahamB]

Wasn't the South East Asian Martial Arts Championships (stand up) running for years using only traditional arts?

[johnwang]

use ONLY traditional Chinese Kung Fu training methods (Zhan Zhuang, Basic Technique Training, Shen Fa Training, Chi Gung, etc) to train for modern full-contact (stand-up) tournaments (such as San Shou, Kickboxing, etc). Would you be able to develop all the necessary stamina, strength, power, etc,

Zhan Zhuang is also called 太保(Tai Bao). In Chinese it means a high position governor and his job is to help the young prince to develop into the future emperor. Zhan Zhuang help you to develop combat ability but it's not combat ability by itself.

The traditional CMA training is much more than that.

- Deflect an incoming kick,
- use your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm,
- enter and attack his standing leg.

is one of many TCMA training methods and it work very well in San Shou or kickboxing environment.

Some of the so called "modern training" are just a modification of some "traditional training".

- The KB is no different from the stone lock.
- The Judo bicycle tube training is no different from the SC pulley training.
- ...

I'm sure one day some MMA gym may figure out how to do "low stance walking" and call it "modern training method".

[Walk the Torque]

cerebus ,

I have thought about this one too. The conclusion I've come to is that if you are doing full on sparring with wrestling and throwing, along with the other stuff you mention, then your training would suffice.

[johnwang]

This is just a theoretical question to see what other people can come up with for a "traditional only" training program that could accomplish the same effects as a "modern" training program.

I don't know that "modern" train methods even exist for "head lock", "leg twist", "tie", "leg lift", "sweep", "scoop", "leg bite", ...

It's not whether "traditional only" training program can accomplish the same effects as a "modern" training program or not. The "modern" training has a big empty hole in it and people just don't realize. One day when MMA guys feel like to develop their skill in much higher level, they will be interest in those "tradition" CMA training methods. The day when MMA guys include "low stance walking" into their daily training, the day they may stop criticizing about CMA. Ancient Chinese may not be as stupid as some people want to believe.

[Fubo]

Hey there. Just curious what you folks would have to say about this. My question is, would it be feasible to use ONLY traditional Chinese Kung Fu training methods (Zhan Zhuang, Basic Technique Training, Shen Fa Training, Chi Gung, etc) to train for modern full-contact (stand-up) tournaments (such as San Shou, Kickboxing, etc). Would you be able to develop all the necessary stamina, strength, power, etc, that modern fighters develop through running, skipping rope, circuit training, heavy bag, speed-ball, etc? And if it is possible, what would your program look like?

Yes, absolutely. I think if you look at how many of the "older" generations trained (before "modern"), there were a variety of body weight, stamina, cardio, task specific weight training, and cooperative, light to full resistance sparring. I think when faced with a specific task (in this case fighting) people will do what's needed to train for that task... They will find different ways to achieve the same goals, ie John Wang's comparison between KB and stone lock, Judo inner tube and SC pulley etc...

[Mut]

"kung fu that does not spar cannot fight"

...my thoughts exactly

[Fubo]

I think the reason why this question gets raised so many times is because so many TCMA have turned so "untraditional" or "half-assed traditional" - ie taking out the sparring, tougher conditioning etc...

[cerebus]

I guess I was just taking it for granted that sparring would be required, whether considered "traditional" or not. I was hoping for someone to sit down and think up what kind of "traditional" exercises they would use for conditioning and solo training, and to what extent they would use each exercise (how much of each exercise per day, how many days a week, etc)...

[Mut]

Sparring (free sparring at any rate)is not a part of many traditional systems. In Chow Gar there is an awful lot of jonge (partner) work but no sparring. Here in Oz that is one of the big differences between the lines of chow gar... relevance of sparring to development of ability. As for other traditional methods, we still employ grinding arm (tui sao) hei gung (hard chi gung) and other power production and sensitivity drills as well as some other jonge work and of course sparring.

Side note: much of what I see in places that passes as sparring is not what I consider sparring. By this I mean touch/non- contact sparring and the general idea of step sparring.

Coming back to the solo work, we employ a fair bit of form work, but the basis of this is not learning combo's and the like, forms in our line are purely about power production methods. We want to keep the application of techniques 'free and spontaneous' (take this with a grain of salt) rather than set in patterns.

Fubu.... I agree that the term 'traditional' has been pretty much hijacked. I would change the name for most 'traditional ' schools to dogmatic myself .

Years ago the school I train at competed at some kung-fu competitions, we did really well in those comps. We found out afterward that many of the local schools had geared thier training to compete while we did nothing different in our training... other than showing up for the comp itself.

[DeusTrismegistus]

How can you answer this question if traditional isn't defined? A school of fighting may have taken out the sparring practices 30 years ago. Or maybe 100 years ago they sparred for training and haven't since. Whats the traditional way?

[mixjourneyman]

The first thing I would like to say is I've never been in a comp and likely never will be.
However if I had to use trad training methods I would probably include some of the following:

Beng quan: very low posture, fast for ten or fifteen minutes at the start of the session. For cardio, to develop leg speed, endurance, and for force training.
One of the eight basic palms of bagua on a circle with low posture mud walking: I have found that walking like this greatly increased my ability to do fast footwork and also helped my throwing ability.
Tree striking: use the palms to hit a tree to build force and connectivity.
A tonne of competition based application: probably mostly pao quan since pao allows you to keep a guard at head level. Extremely important if you are going to fight people with fast hand technique combos.
Lots of sparring and SC or moving step PH: Spar in competition length rounds to make sure you won't gas and also to get a feel for what the round should feel like. Start integrating the striking with the SC and try to make it work as a cohesive unit.

There is probably lots I'm missing, but I think those components would be helpful

[cerebus]

How can you answer this question if traditional isn't defined? A school of fighting may have taken out the sparring practices 30 years ago. Or maybe 100 years ago they sparred for training and haven't since. Whats the traditional way?

Don't take the question too seriously. It's just a "What if..." kinda thing, like "What if Superman fought the Hulk?". I'm just wondering what kind of traditional CMA training program might get someone into the similar condition and level of preparation as a modern San Shou/ Muay Thai type of training program.

[cerebus]

The first thing I would like to say is I've never been in a comp and likely never will be.
However if I had to use trad training methods I would probably include some of the following:

Beng quan: very low posture, fast for ten or fifteen minutes at the start of the session. For cardio, to develop leg speed, endurance, and for force training.
One of the eight basic palms of bagua on a circle with low posture mud walking: I have found that walking like this greatly increased my ability to do fast footwork and also helped my throwing ability.
Tree striking: use the palms to hit a tree to build force and connectivity.
A tonne of competition based application: probably mostly pao quan since pao allows you to keep a guard at head level. Extremely important if you are going to fight people with fast hand technique combos.
Lots of sparring and SC or moving step PH: Spar in competition length rounds to make sure you won't gas and also to get a feel for what the round should feel like. Start integrating the striking with the SC and try to make it work as a cohesive unit.

There is probably lots I'm missing, but I think those components would be helpful

Thanks Mix! This is the kind of thing I was looking for. Just a theoretical idea of what a "traditional only" program might look like (however one might define traditional).