Retreat - and Power Moving Backwards

[Walk the Torque]

Is this something you put a lot of time into?

When I spar I find there is a lot of moving forwards and back; especially when grappling stand up. So I have spent quite a lot of time working on stepping back, diagonally back and turning away (momentarily I should add) and developing as much power as I can muster.

Being mainly a bagua guy, I work a lot on this kind of stuff so it can be used striking in an evasive context or when changing points of contact while striking (to secure a hold for take downs, throws etc).

I have heard quite a few views on retreating as a strategy. Most seem to say it is not a good idea. What is the general consensus of the board? Have you made this work for you? and what kind of mechanics do you use?

[klonk]

This business of being bipeds makes backing up our worst mode of locomotion. We're inherently not good at it.

[D_Glenn]

In bagua this skill is trained and developed under the Gen trigram -背身掌 'beishenzhang' (back body palm), which has the 撤步- Che Bu -
Withdrawing Step, it also has backwards circle walking using the withdrawing step. The main aspect of striking while withdrawing is that it's very difficult to get a long strike or force out so it's known for developing and using a very short, blunt force and known for 止 zhi (stopping) the opponent. Gen is represented with the mountain and the shape of the trigram called the 'upside down bowl' both of which represent solid and stable and a wide heavy stance in the legs.

[Walk the Torque]

This business of being bipeds makes backing up our worst mode of locomotion. We're inherently not good at it.

Sure but if we train...............what then?

[Fubo]

Being able to step back is very important for a lot of throw and should be trained, IME. I think it's important not to think of moving back as "retreating", but as moving in just another direction that allows for a different variation of techniques.

[klonk]

This business of being bipeds makes backing up our worst mode of locomotion. We're inherently not good at it.

Sure but if we train...............what then?

Obviously you can improve the backing up skill through training, but you are still building upon a foundation of something we are naturally not good at. Western fencing probably does more and better backing up than any other martial art, but it is still a bit unnatural. It is, furthermore, done in the knowledge that there is a clear strip behind you.

I would say, train to back up when you need to, but when there is something else you could do instead, say, move sideways or forward, you are playing more to your inherent strengths if you do that, instead of backing up.

[Walk the Torque]

D_Glenn,

Thanks for the reply. Its true what you say about distance. These shots don't allow for much reach. This is why I mentioned the grappling; this seems like the most appropriate time to use this skill; when your pressured or are luring someone in.

When you say "withdrawing step" is this a special type of stepping? The method I use now is either stepping back and turning towards the front leg (like a cross in boxing), or turning away from the front leg (like a jab). I played with "dropping" into the back leg from standing but mobility was even more reduced, so I kind of gave up on that one. Is there any special method for the "withdrawing step"?

Fubo,
Agreed. But I must admit I only use Retreating stepping back with sweeps.

[Walk the Torque]

This business of being bipeds makes backing up our worst mode of locomotion. We're inherently not good at it.

Sure but if we train...............what then?

Obviously you can improve the backing up skill through training, but you are still building upon a foundation of something we are naturally not good at. Western fencing probably does more and better backing up than any other martial art, but it is still a bit unnatural. It is, furthermore, done in the knowledge that there is a clear strip behind you.

I would say, train to back up when you need to, but when there is something else you could do instead, say, move sideways or forward, you are playing more to your inherent strengths if you do that, instead of backing up.

Oh I see where your coming from. I should clarify. The positions I move backwards from are really more like moving sideways anyhow, due to the position of my feet. Relative to the other guy I may be moving backwards but often I will be using the same mechanics for sideways. Like D-Glenn said, wide "stances". Moving straight back in the direction my heels are pointing is neither quick nor easy.

[D_Glenn]

"When you say "withdrawing step" is this a special type of stepping? The method I use now is either stepping back and turning towards the front leg (like a cross in boxing), or turning away from the front leg (like a jab). I played with "dropping" into the back leg from standing but mobility was even more reduced, so I kind of gave up on that one. Is there any special method for the "withdrawing step"?

Fubo,
Agreed. But I must admit I only use Retreating stepping back with sweeps."


The true 'che bu' withdrawing step is where the back foot stays where it's at and the front foot steps back behind the back foot, this would typically put you into the 'bai bu' stance where the kua is completely open and the toes are pointing opposite directions, this is like going back straight, going back diagonally like you said is trained while circle turning backwards, a normal shorter withdraw step is more like your typical back step. The 'tui bu' (retreating step) is where the back foot steps backward and the front foot shuffles back to catch up but same side is forward. You can also do the withdrawing step with the 'wo bu' (crouching step) which is like withdrawing stepping into a long bow and arrow double width stance, this stepping and it's attack(s) look very similar to 'defending against the shoot' in MMA. It's a very quick charging backwards (沖 chong) but still 'zhi' (stopping) the opponent.

[JusticeZero]

Don't back up, go at other angles. There are 359 of them in the horizontal plane alone! Go sideways or around or something.

[Daniel]

Hmmm. Yes. This is one of those things that programs you differently depending on what style you do, I think.

Xingyi has a Never Retreat and Never Let Salesmen In-policy. However, that´s a bit of a misnomer. It´s part of the basic training in the Five Fists to move backwards while striking with full power forwards in various angles and heights.

Taiji has the speciality of opening doors and inviting you in, Please Have Some Cake, it´s an Old Recipe, no, go on, Spoil Yourself... This can be done unmoving except for weight-shift and spirals, but can also be done stepping back and into a position you had prepared. I guess that the SBRM could fit into that with short Ji forward. You would also do this kind of stepping in various patterns when you work through Grasp Sparrow´s Tail, first with each move and power, then combining them into various patterns both physically and energetically.

Bagua - the Bagua I´ve worked with would not really move back per se, except for a step shifting the rest around it and changing. It would close, spiral, move internally aside, externally aside, shift the center... Interesting about the backwards circle-walking, D Glenn. Is that really going backwards in the circle? Is it unique to the style you´re doing, or have you seen it in other ones? I´d be interested to know more.

Some other styles also work with moving backward but in the sense of moving backward through shifting your center in various planes, or opening spaces, doors, gaps, and moving into them.

You can also "go back" in one part of your body, but forward/above/up-down in another. This can also move weapons very fast and is so "strange" for most MA that they freeze a little in front of it.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Stepping back feels pretty natural to me. Its what people naturally do to get away, its what people do when surprised. IMO stepping back and striking is not much different from stepping forward and striking.

[mixjourneyman]

I do xingyi backwards at times. I have a sweet combo where I throw two pao's to the head then create a gap for my opponent to move in and step back with a zuan to the chin. Its a real goody!

My buddy uses backwards movement with his tkd to set up some really gnarly kicks.
Basically he knows I'm going to try to come in forward at either the front or side doors, he keeps his distance just that little bit past me so I can't hit him, and then when I move just close enough he pulls out a spinning back kick and beats the snot out of me

[D_Glenn]

"Interesting about the backwards circle-walking, D Glenn. Is that really going backwards in the circle? Is it unique to the style you´re doing, or have you seen it in other ones? I´d be interested to know more."

Yeah it's continually moving and stepping backwards around the circle, the diameter is about 3'. It's difficult to do, which is why at some point it should be practiced until it becomes easy.

Other people on this forum and styles have it but I think they're also doing Yin Fu bagua, just different lineage.

[Daniel]

Thanks.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.