Leg twist (Kawazu gake) - illegal move in Judo?

[johnwang]

Is leg twist (Kawazu gake) illegal in Judo? I can clearly see at 0.58 in this clip.

[everything]

don't think so but not sure. why should or shouldn't it be legal? not safe?

[edededed]

According to the Kodokan's webpage, kawazugake (河津掛) is illegal (see this (Japanese, but you can read Chinese characters) page here: http://www.kodokan.org/j_waza/index.html). It seems to be the only illegal throwing technique (there are two illegal ground (wrestling) techniques).

[johnwang]

why should or shouldn't it be legal? not safe?

If your opponent's body is sinking and his leg is bending as a horse stance, it doesn't take much effort to hurt his knee side way. Every time I trained this move with my guys, We have to be extream careful not to hurt each other.

IMO, illegal moves always have high "combat" value. I'm more interesting in training those so called "illegal moves" than those legal moves. Those "illegal moves" are excellent choice to use to deal with unfriendly challengers. When people don't want to take chance to get permanent injury, nobody will challenge you any more.

[CaliG]

I'm not surprised. The scissors takedown is also illegal due to the high amount of injuries.

I haven't seen anyone use kawazu gake in judo. I'm far from a seasoned judoka but I can say I've never seen this throw taught in the judo schools I've been too, but then again maybe they teach it at the adavnced level.

The first time I saw these leg twisting throws was in sambo and in SC. I imagine sambo probably got them from old judo as this is the orignal base of sambo.

I do like these throws, it would be nice to taught them formally. But I can understand why they might be illegal because judo already has a lot of injuries that go with it as it is. (Just look at the video of the way Koreans throw guys on their heads on the grip thread.)

I believe the scissors takedown was stopped due to knee injuries maybe kawazu gake was removed for the same reason. Perhaps someday they'll make the flying armbar illegal due to guys tapping out too late.

[Kurt Robbins]

It's illeagal in some tournaments if you don't use the leg to chip up the oppnents leg and then grab.
All depends on the judges.

[edededed]

Surprisingly, the "scissors takedown" (蟹挟, kanibasami) is in the same list and not reported as illegal (perhaps it was made legal again).

[Brady]

I never heard of leg twists as being illegal, and if it is then much of the matches I win I should be disqualified, I spam it like its my job. Its actually fundamental to a bunch of important judo throws. Also, it was my favorite funky wrestling move to pull off, called a spladle and people never saw it coming.

Scissors is another story, and I'm glad they are illegal, shit is brutal and not for a friendly match. 5 months ago I was trying to calm down and teach an eager new kid in our Judo intro class and he spontaneously went for this scissor on me. Good instinct, but dangerous, and he nearly took out my knee. I had to do a vicious uncontrolled counter throw to save my leg and hurt his neck landing funny on him. Luckily he's a tough dude and still trains with the team this day.

[Fubo]

I'm not surprised. The scissors takedown is also illegal due to the high amount of injuries.

I haven't seen anyone use kawazu gake in judo. I'm far from a seasoned judoka but I can say I've never seen this throw taught in the judo schools I've been too, but then again maybe they teach it at the adavnced level.

The scissors throw was actually one of the few throws that we learned in my old BJJ school. I was taught it at my Judo school, not as a part of normal class technique, but as a part of one of the katas. I don't remember the name of the kata though. Cool and dangerous technique.

[johnwang]

Here is the Chinese version of the "scissors throw":

http://johnswang.com/scissor.wmv

[CaliG]

Here's some sambo style leg twisting and a scissors at 2:10.

[klonk]

I think it's so rarely seen that the judge didn't see it.

Is leg twist (Kawazu gake) illegal in Judo? I can clearly see at 0.58 in this clip.

[CaliG]

I think in the end that's the downside of sport, that useful techniques may be illegal.

For example the Burmese do their kickboxing with headbuttes and the Thais don't. All things being equal for street self-defense I think the Burmese would have an edge.

But in sport more than likely you'll find more Thai fighters who are better in a rules fight because they fight more internationally, have more guys in their sport and the country is doing better economically.

[wiesiek]

when i was in official judo fighting group :
- you could use kawazugake as an "action stopper" - kinda of block
but
throwing was not allowed when kawazugake was in locked position
so
throw from vid. posted by JW
could be - no point action
and probably penality for the tori - follow 20 y.old rules of course
and
- scissors throw was legal in my time

edit
i mean 30 years old rules
well
time doesn`t stop

[johnwang]

you could use kawazugake as an "action stopper" - kinda of block but throwing was not allowed when kawazugake was in locked position.

In Judo rules, can you use leg twist (Kawazu gake) to secure yourself

- if your opponent uses embracing (Ura Nage) from behind (use leg twist for defense)?
- and then use your leg block (O Guruma) or leg lift (Uchi Mata) afterward (use leg twist as fake, part of your combo)?