the importance of sparring as a method of training

[everything]

beautiful video. damn. no idea how to deal with that.

[RobP2]

Good body movement and hit him hard and good asap, but it's difficult to train. You have to give the attacker some real discouragement to stop him and that is tough to simulate. In one sense it makes the marker pen drills a bit fake, but nonetheless they get people moving

[GrahamB]

beautiful video. damn. no idea how to deal with that.

I was thinking that the defender should make some use out of that that left arm that the attacker is using as a barrier on his chest - the defender is more preoccupied with stopping the knife arm and the knife. I'd be thinking more about movement - getting out of the way of the knife by put a chin na on that left arm and use it as a barrier against the knife getting too close - get elbow control on it - then ideally use the lock to take the guy down hard, if that doesn't work then kick the fuck out of anything you can reach until you can get the lock on. Anyway, that's what I think I'd do. What I'd probably do is die

[Areios]

well it's hard to train in realistic. Because the defender is not going to hit him in the face with full force without any protection. At least he's trainig buddy. But for the minde set it's good training.

[Ba-men]

my 2 cents

Its hard to come up with a systematic defense against "Anyone" using a knife. I didn't think the individual with the knife was using any "advanced technique". ( other than just plain old strength and speed) and look what happened. To trade blows with a person who is wielding a knife doesn't sound like the best decision. (although... I'll agree in many cases that might be the only choice one has. )

My thing is..... I ask " how does anyone train realistically for a knife attack and who's lead do you follow in the experience department?" Realistically, you get one shot, one mistake and its over. Surviving a knife attack doesn't make you an expert, it makes you lucky. Being in multiple encounters against someone wielding a knife I'd say it makes you an idiot! (unless a veteran of war in which you participated in numerous battles)

Evasion and shielding seems the only common strategy that I've seen that sticks with me personally. Although most of the techniques are not macho displays of prowess. An example of evasion and shielding would be "if" not having the room to outmaneuver the attacker (say in a cramped bar/pub) you drop on to your back and use you feet (i.e. shoes being the shield i.e. leather, rubber etc..) to keep him off of you. The evasion part was going downward to the floor. Your legs can take more damage than your abdomen and your not exposing your neck and head (without a fight) Nope... its not macho to fall to the floor and kick like a little bitch screaming for help!...but... Knife attacks call for thinking outside of the box.

[Chris McKinley]

Surviving a knife attack doesn't make you an expert, it makes you lucky.

That's why, unlike a lot of my colleagues, I tend not to be purely dogmatic when it comes to blades. It's such a game of Shitstorm on the Nightmare difficulty setting that nobody yet has found THE formula for it.

[BruceP]

Ba-men wrote:

The evasion part was going downward to the floor

That's some good thinking, Ba-men, and well ahead of the curve.

We do a lot of training with that idea over here, with different kinds of 'weapons' (beer bottles, glasses, knives, flails...)

It was an unpopular idea the first time I suggested it on the old EF. I picked up on it in the early 90s after reading about one of the Riddle of Steel camps

[strawdog]

Laying back to the guard position... wow!

[Darth Rock&Roll]

lol, Hey teo! you remember these drills man?

Rory introduced us to this kind of thing at the '03 CK meetup and then we did it again with Chris and Bill at the CK meetup in '04

good info in that vid, take heed boys.

[humbleboxer]

I like and respect Tim. he seems to be a great guy and martial artist. sorry to play "Devils Advocate" I would like to know how many real fights he has been in? he gives his opinion about sparring but then quotes 2 other people who were bouncers. bouncers who generally work in teams, are generally fighters and fight people who may be drunk or wimps. the knife video is a great tool but hardly real. in the knife video the knife holder starts with his "fake"knife out and his arm against his victim. how many fights start this way? how real is it if there is no danger for the attacker or defender. I bet the defender would have had a different amount of participation if the knife were real. sparring is one of many ways to train. to be effective it has to be combined with other training and geared towards the overall goal of training (competition, self defense). an athlete will gain experience from games but spends thousands of hours drilling and solo training. sparring is a small part of boxing in comparison to drill training and conditioning. sparring will help you but it will not save you. when the time comes you either do what you have to at the time or you don't.

[BruceP]

Warning: 'Laying back to the guard position' (closed, open, rubber, butterfly, whatever) will get you shredded in a commited attack.

There are a number of different 'postures' for defending against a standing attacker and none of the ones I've found useful even come close to 'laying back to the guard position'

Just wanted to make that clear before any one cooks up some asenine assumption about what the idea entails. Oh wait...somebody already did.

[strawdog]

Yeah, back in the 90's.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

1) it is difficult to "train" at a level of intensity as required to learn how to survive a knife attack.

2) you cannot box against a knife attack, you cannot spar a knife attack

3) direct experience has been garnered by many and shared, if you focus on that, you can develop learning materials

[velalavela]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mX1HD2o14Q

In the Fut Gar System I practiced we spent quite a lot of time on empty hand versus a knife.

It was fun and good to learn and try it out but very hard to train realistically and very hard to beat the guy with the knife.

Maybe the lesson was just get away from the guy with the knife. We actually used to do a drill a bit like this episode of Fight Quest with the practice knife marked so it showed how cut up you could be.

( I love that show Fight Quest.)

[Ba-men]

Warning: 'Laying back to the guard position' (closed, open, rubber, butterfly, whatever) will get you shredded in a commited attack.

There are a number of different 'postures' for defending against a standing attacker and none of the ones I've found useful even come close to 'laying back to the guard position'

Just wanted to make that clear before any one cooks up some asenine assumption about what the idea entails. Oh wait...somebody already did.

People please don't misunderstand me........I'm not talking about "Setting a guard" that is something totally different. Nor do I think the people who agreed with me are also advocating "setting a guard" and staying in it. I'm referring to using the shoes on your feet (as in kicking and thrashing etc...) to block, parry or check the knife attack. Then... If he still manages to get over your primary defense (you feet) then at least you know where and what angle he's coming from. I'm talking about putting distance between you and the knife attack and as well as gaining needed time to formulate an ad-hoc plan.

Standing in close proximity in every case/scenario I've seen or rehearsed just gets me stuck like a pig more than a few times.

As I've said before... being unarmed and defending yourself against a knife wielding attacker calls for "thinking outside of the Box" I've tried to define a defensive strategy that focuses on two primary conduits.

A) Unexpected attack (not seen till sprung)
A1) with room to maneuver
A2) No room to maneuver

B) Expected attack (intentions given, being threatened etc...)
B1) with room to maneuver
B2) No room to maneuver

I look for techniques and strategies that up the percentage of survival...which IMO is different that techniques that invlove kicking the crap out of the attacker... a lot of the survival techniques are not macho nor sporting...but who is attacking who with a knife?