zhan zhuang and supplements question

[He Shou Wu]

Hello all,

IME one part behind the consensus of training basic ZZ is to break down the calcium in bone and rebuild it to increase the density and durability to a higher level. What are your thoughts about supplements along with training ZZ to speed up the process?

Jarrow Formulas makes a good product called Bone Up containing microcrystalline hydroxyapatite (used commonly to strengthen and density to bone for medical reasons) There is also Cell Food, Strontium Citrate, elemental calcium, Vitamin K-2...ext.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Usually AFAIK calcium is only broken down out of bones when there is a calcium deficiency in the body (which is usually NOT caused by lack of calcium intake but lack of magnesium and phosphorus intake). So ZZ might help bone density increase I am not sure any calcium is actually broken down. However good supplements shouldn't hurt as long as you don't take to much.

[He Shou Wu]

Usually AFAIK calcium is only broken down out of bones when there is a calcium deficiency in the body

While a balanced Cal-Mag ratio is important. After the age of 20 the growth of bones stops but the level of density increases. (unless there is a deficiency) Thus afterward the cycle of resorption and formation is constant throughout your life. Roughly 40% of your skeleton's weight is comprised of calcium. Along with the mineral phosphorus, calcium is what gives bone its hard structure. Calcium must be derived from foods or supplements and is not produced in the body therefore it is considered an essential mineral. In the body calcium is broken down by the osteoclasts in the bone and is rebuilt by osteoblasts continuously.

[Sprint]

Hello all,

IME one part behind the consensus of training basic ZZ is to break down the calcium in bone and rebuild it to increase the density and durability to a higher level.

Do you have any scientific/medical evidence to support this? I'd be very interested to read it if you do.

[johnwang]

Medical report said weight lifting in old age can help building bone density. ZZ is pretty much like to use your own body weight. Beside increase bone density, you can also achieve the following:

- Balance
- Endurance
- Flexibility

[Ian]

Hello all,

IME one part behind the consensus of training basic ZZ is to break down the calcium in bone and rebuild it to increase the density and durability to a higher level.

Do you have any scientific/medical evidence to support this? I'd be very interested to read it if you do.

I really don't think there's a consensus that standing post breaks down calcium...

But I'm curious about standing post's effects on bone density.

Obviously proper training makes it seem like your limbs become heavier, you can hit harder etc. A person of below average weight can seem a lot heavier if he knows how to use his body properly.

But has anyone ever verified the effects of standing post on bone density?

There are stories of CMA guys in the past having greater than average bone density. This can easily be verified nowadays using bone density scans so that we can stop relying on annecdotal evidence.

Btw a positive result would be CMA adepts having *greater than average* bone density, not just a maintenance of bone density, as is the case with weight lifting in old age.

[Sprint]

It irritates the life out of me when people make unfounded claims, not just about martial arts. But in relation to M.A, proof of so called health benefits are pretty thin. What I have seen is some weak evidence relating to some fairly minor health conditions. Imagine if you have osteoporosis for example and you read stuff about some exercise that could help reverse your condition, so you pay out and what happens? ....f*ck all. Not nice.

Having said that, I do believe that there are some benfits to health that are unique to CIMA. But what exactly they are is yet to be defined.

[martialartist]

I too would like to know the origin of the 'bone density' claims.

[Fubo]

I remember reading a comparison between the bone density of the hips and legs of two 70 something years olds, one of which had practiced TJQ and ZZ for some years, the other did little exercise... this was in the Wu style push-hands book by Ma Yueh Liang. The book showed x-rays of the 2 old men's hips and legs... the guy who did no exercise had lots of tiny fractures on his bones and the bones looked kind of thinner or more fragile, the guy who did TJQ and ZZ had obviously thicker and smoother bones that showed no hair line fractures.

I don't know how accurate the testing is in this case or even if it proves the bone density claims.

[Teazer]

So perhaps it just maintains a decent level of bone density for longer, rather than all this breaking down & building up business.

[bigphatwong]

I like to crush a couple of Flintstone Vitamins and snort them with a rolled-up dollar bill before standing. It really provides that extra boost. In fact, I just did a Barney before I logged in here...I'm flying!

Alternately, you can stand while holding a head of cabbage at the lower dantien and absorb the calcium directly through your palms.

[Felipe Bidó]

Hello all,

IME one part behind the consensus of training basic ZZ is to break down the calcium in bone and rebuild it to increase the density and durability to a higher level.

Sounds like a misquote from another training, like hitting to harden the bones.

Hitting produces micro-fractures in your bones and when they start to get healed their density is increased, making them harder. I don't remember who wrote that a few years ago on the forum.

But I had never heard that about ZZ

[Walk the Torque]

Yeah I heard the same as Felipe. In fact I have struck walls for some time now, and I now have quite solid hands. But that is another story.

I think there may be some merit to this supposition regarding ZZ, and it may have something to do with the stress caused to the skeleton by the pull of the muscles from the twisting and stretching done in the postures. I would think though that there would be more of this though while doing form work.

I would be interested to know if it is just a case of all exercise increases bone density or if martial arts increases bone density more. My guess is the former.

[johnwang]

Bone density sharply enhanced by weight training, even in the elderly.

http://www.naturalnews.com/010528.html

[He Shou Wu]

Bone tissue must have a daily stimulus to maintain
health. The daily applied loading history, comprising
the number of loading cycles and the stress magnitude,
influences the density of the bone. Intermittent loading
for 100 cycles a day has been shown to produce a significant
increase in the bone cross-section (36). Body weight
and activity level are examples of factors that regulate density
in the weight-bearing bones. Increases in the activity
level produce a moderate increase in bone mass.

http://www.engr.panam.edu/~rafree/IntroBioMech/SkeletalOverview/smch2.pdf