zhan zhuang and supplements question

[Sprint]

I can see that you have good intentions, but they say the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

"0.2 to 0.5% yearly loss in the mineral weight of bone (36),
accelerating after menopause in women to bone loss that is
50% greater than in men of similar age (29). It is speculated
that a substantial proportion of this bone loss may be
related to the accompanying reduction in activity level

It is clear that the
elderly may benefit from some form of weight-bearing
exercise even though the exercise intensity and durations
have not been determined."

So for zhan zhuang what are we saying? Women need to practice twice as long as men to get the same benefit? And how long should that be...? I hour, 20 mins, 10 hours? per day/week/month.

If you want to talk about science then "near enough" or "more or less" is not good enough. It's sloppy, bad science. Ultimately if it is proved wrong then it diminishes everyone.

[Ian]

Bone tissue must have a daily stimulus to maintain
health. The daily applied loading history, comprising
the number of loading cycles and the stress magnitude,
influences the density of the bone. Intermittent loading
for 100 cycles a day has been shown to produce a significant
increase in the bone cross-section (36). Body weight
and activity level are examples of factors that regulate density
in the weight-bearing bones. Increases in the activity
level produce a moderate increase in bone mass.

http://www.engr.panam.edu/~rafree/IntroBioMech/SkeletalOverview/smch2.pdf

-This says nothing about breaking down and rebuilding calcium to make the bones thicker and more dense.
-What is "activity"? Weight training? Running?

[He Shou Wu]

It is speculated
that a substantial proportion of this bone loss may be
related to the accompanying reduction in activity level

If you want to talk about science then "near enough" or "more or less" is not good enough. It's sloppy, bad science. Ultimately if it is proved wrong then it diminishes everyone.

The science is there. It is not bad science, ZZ can be view as a dynamic exercise, which turns over bone because of the load forces it utilizes by stressing the body against gravity and its own weight/structure..

The snip you took above was meant to describe a person that lays or sits a lot, say, behind a computer, with little to no exercise in their daily routine.

[DeusTrismegistus]

From http://www.osteopenia3.com/Tai-Chi-exercise.html



Tai chi exercise
Tai Chi exercise for Osteopenia, Osteoporosis and a whole lot more. What if there were an exercise that you could do in your own home,that could be done by anyone at any age, that required no special equipment and scientific studies showed that it:

Improved balance and reduced falls - thus preventing fractures.
slow bone loss in post menopausal women
Was more effective than water exercise for those with arthritis
Reduces tension headaches
Showed significant improvement for those with Osteoarthritis
Decreased blood pressure in those with hypertension (high blood pressure)
Improved blood lipid scores (cholesterol)
Improved mood and sense of well being Appears useful for those in the early stages of Parkinson's disease
Improves quality of life and range of motion in breast cancer survivors
Enhances immune response
Improves flexibility and kinesthetic sense
has been shown safe for those with chronic heart failure

Impressed? Well, the above list comes from reading only half the studies published in peer reviewed journals about Tai chi exercise.

Tai Chi Program from your computer

The studies that surprised me most were the ones that showed that Tai Chi exercise has a positive effect on bone density. I had long known that it helped improve balance and prevented falls but bone density?




In May 2007 the journal, Arch Phys Med Rehabil published a study which reviewed the 'evidence for Tai Chi exercise as an intervention to reduce rate of bone loss in post menopausal women.

The researchers reviewed randomized controlled trials and prospective cohort studies as well as cross-sectional studies using Tai Chi exercise as in intervention related to bone density. They found 6 studies that met their criteria. After reviewing the results of Tai Chi exercise in these studies, they concluded that:

The randomized control studies showed that women who began to practice Tai Chi exercise "exhibited reduced rates of Post menopausal declines in BMD"
The cross sectional studies suggested that those who did Tai Chi exercise for several years had higher BMD than age-matched sedentary controls and the practitioners had slower rates of post menopausal bone density decline

AND there was NO reports of any adverse effect of Tai Chi exercise in any of the studies.


In 2007 researches from the Department of Pathology at Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center publisheda study in the Am. J. of Chin. Med which compared the "effects of Tai Chi (TC) and resistancetraining (RT) on bone metabolism in the elderly. This study was small. The participants were in their late 70's and they did either TC or RT for 40 minutesthree times a week for 6 months.

The outcome measures assessed were the concentrations of serum bone-specific alkaline phosphatase (BAP), pyridinoline (PYD), parathyroid hormone (PTH) and calcium, and urinary calcium.

Interestingly, the TC group were more faithful to their program than those doing the resistance training (weights)

After 6 weeks, (b) both TC and RT resulted in higher level of serum BAP relative to the baseline and the TC group exhibited a greater increase in serum BAP than the RT group;

There was an increase of serum PYD in the RT group only, not in the TC group; and the BAP/PYD ratio was higher than baseline only in the TC group, and the increase of the ratio in the TC group was greater than that in the RT group. After 12 weeks, the increase in serum PTH in the TC group was higher than the RT group.


To be honest I was surprised by these findings. I had known that Tai Chi exercise was good for improving balance, reducing stressand preventing falls but I did not realize that it, in itself could reduce bone loss. Two years ago, after reading of its positive effect on balance and co-ordination I decided to learn this exercise system. But I ran into a number of problems:

All the classes charged weekly fees - so if I were going to do this as part of my regular activity, it would windup costing me more than $350 a year.
Next I tried using some videos but the movements came so fast I could not learn them and I just gave up.>/li>

Recently I was trolling the Internet and I found an ebook with a set of animations of the essential moves. The teacher is Joseph Pang from Malaysia. He has studied under a number Tai Chi masters.

Since his program teaches with an ebook, there is an exact description of each move. Unlike video programs, you can read what you was supposed to be doing before you try it. And right next to the text there is a box with animations of each move.

So you can read the description. Look at the animation. And replay that animation while you try the move along with with the animated figure. And what is even better is that you can repeat a move again and again until you really know it.

I began with one move a day. Each day I would start back at the beginning and do each move with the animations ). If I got confused, I could read the text which was on the screen right next to each animation. After I go through all the moves I have learned already, I go onto the the next one.

I have found this program easy to use. It goes step by step and does not require going through a whole bunch of things before we know what we are doing.

After learning the whole sequence of moves, you can stop using Joseph's ebook and began practicing with the videos that comes with the program. But, unlike most Tai Chi video program, you have already learned the moves so you can keep up with the video.

And if you ever get a bit confused while working with the video, you can go back to the ebook with its animations. I love it. ThisI can do ...and was really inexpensive.

Now, if you click on Joseph Pang page [link below] , do not be put off by some of the simplistic language. Remember, English isnot his native language and he is writing from a different culture with different concerns and values. (The English in the Ebook is VERY clear and precise - he must have gotten a good editor.)


No, he does not mention bone density improvement among the benefits but then the studies are rather new and he may not be aware of them.) What I especially like is that he offers a 3 month money back guarantee......that gives a long enough period for a 'trial of the Tai chi program' to see if it is something you really can do. And it is much less expensive than taking weekly classes.

Well, that is my take on it. If you want to look at Joseph Pang's program, Click Here for Tai Chi exercise program

And the Abstract on one of the referenced studies.

The effects of Tai Chi on bone mineral density in postmenopausal women: a systematic review.Wayne PM, Kiel DP, Krebs DE, Davis RB, Savetsky-German J, Connelly M, Buring JE.
New England School of Acupuncture, Watertown, MA, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the evidence for Tai Chi as an intervention to reduce rate of bone loss in postmenopausal women. DATA SOURCES: Literature search using Medline, Science Citation Index, Cochrane databases, China Biological Medicine Database, and additional manual reference searches of retrieved articles and personal libraries. STUDY SELECTION: Randomized controlled trials (RCTs), prospective cohort studies, and cross-sectional studies that included Tai Chi as an intervention, and had at least 1 outcome related to measurement of bone mineral density (BMD). DATA EXTRACTION: Authors critically reviewed studies, evaluated methodologic quality, and synthesized study results in a summary table. DATA SYNTHESIS: Six controlled studies were identified by our search. There were 2 RCTs, 2 nonrandomized prospective parallel cohort studies, and 2 cross-sectional studies. The 2 RCTs and 1 of the prospective cohort studies suggested that Tai Chi-naive women who participated in Tai Chi training exhibited reduced rates of postmenopausal declines in BMD. Cross-sectional studies suggested that long-term Tai Chi practitioners had higher BMD than age-matched sedentary controls, and had slower rates of postmenopausal BMD decline. No adverse effects related to Tai Chi were reported in any trial. CONCLUSIONS: Conclusions on the impact of Tai Chi on BMD are limited by the quantity and quality of research to date. This limited evidence suggests Tai Chi may be an effective, safe, and practical intervention for maintaining BMD in postmenopausal women. In combination with research that indicates Tai Chi can positively impact other risk factors associated with low BMD (eg, reduced fall frequency, increased musculoskeletal strength), further methodologically sound research is warranted to better evaluate the impact of Tai Chi practice on BMD and fracture risk in postmenopausal women.

PMID: 17466739 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17466739

I am not sure any studies have been done on standing post though.

[He Shou Wu]

-What is "activity"? Weight training? Running?

Bone is a highly adaptive material that is very sensitive to
disuse, immobilization, or vigorous activity and high levels
of loading.

Bone tissue is self-repairing and can alter its
properties and configuration in response to mechanical
demand. i.e gravity, weight training (Like ZZ), load stress (like ZZ), dynamic forces (Like ZZ,) or external forces.

During growth and in life, the bones are subjected to
externally applied loads and muscular forces to which the
bone responds.

What this means is the more you use your body, the stronger and denser it will become. Hence, one of the benefits of ZZ practice, applying natural stress, using the body's own weight against gravity to make a stronger, thicker, denser, more durable structure over time. How does the body get stronger ? The forces of sheer stress and compression of the bone tissue speed up the metabolism of trace minerals (such as calcium) which are broken down reabsorbed and restructured to make a stronger, more denser skeletal frame. That is why for beginners the body shakes a lot, because the skeletal frame is stressed over its own weight.

[Josealb]

Ive heard that when a bone suffers damage (ie, breaks, scrapes, whatever), it heals, and the structure where it broke gets tougher. A Doc once said to me that bones never break in the same place twice because of this.

Not saying ZZ is actual damage to the bone, of course. Just mentioning a fact i got from hearsay. Anyone knows about this?

[DeusTrismegistus]

Ive heard that when a bone suffers damage (ie, breaks, scrapes, whatever), it heals, and the structure where it broke gets tougher. A Doc once said to me that bones never break in the same place twice because of this.

Not saying ZZ is actual damage to the bone, of course. Just mentioning a fact i got from hearsay. Anyone knows about this?

I was told the same thing by my doc when I broke my wrist as a kid.

[martialartist]

some of you are talking about damage to bones, curious how there would be stress or damage to bones when you're just standing there?

[Brady]

Ive heard that when a bone suffers damage (ie, breaks, scrapes, whatever), it heals, and the structure where it broke gets tougher. A Doc once said to me that bones never break in the same place twice because of this.

Not saying ZZ is actual damage to the bone, of course. Just mentioning a fact i got from hearsay. Anyone knows about this?

They become stronger but more brittle, less "elastic" (if you can call a bone that)

[Sprint]

The science is there. It is not bad science, ZZ can be view as a dynamic exercise, which turns over bone because of the load forces it utilizes by stressing the body against gravity and its own weight/structure..

You are right the science is there, however what you are doing with it is making stuff up. Science is about precision, being thorogh and logic. What you are doing is saying that because two things are similar we should just overlook the differences and treat them as if they were identical. The point is zhan zhuang might be good for bone strength, but you cannot say that it is until someone proves that it is. And if you you make such a claim without proof that is pseudoscience, or being full of shit, in plain language.

If we are talking weight bearing exercise, then does walking count? What about sitting where the weight of the torso is borne by the spinal vertabrae? Or standing waiting for a bus? You have no figures to either refute or confirm whether zhan zhuang is any different from what many people do every day and yet they still lose bone density.

[Ian]

-What is "activity"? Weight training? Running?

Bone is a highly adaptive material that is very sensitive to
disuse, immobilization, or vigorous activity and high levels
of loading.

Bone tissue is self-repairing and can alter its
properties and configuration in response to mechanical
demand. i.e gravity, weight training (Like ZZ), load stress (like ZZ), dynamic forces (Like ZZ,) or external forces.

During growth and in life, the bones are subjected to
externally applied loads and muscular forces to which the
bone responds.

Basically according to you the effects of zhan zhuang on bone density and thickness are virtually identical to that of running, lifting weights, or just being fat.

What this means is the more you use your body, the stronger and denser it will become. Hence, one of the benefits of ZZ practice, applying natural stress...

What is "natural stress"? Moreover, what is unnatural stress?

...using the body's own weight against gravity to make a stronger, thicker, denser, more durable structure over time.

So presumably holding a dead hang every day will also increase bone density and thickness?

How does the body get stronger ? The forces of sheer stress and compression of the bone tissue speed up the metabolism of trace minerals (such as calcium) which are broken down reabsorbed and restructured to make a stronger, more denser skeletal frame.

Do you know anything about biology, or are you just making things up? I'm curious.

Osteoblasts lay down new bone; osteoclasts simultaneously break down bone so that bone thickness remains constant. You can't just exponentially increase the thickness and density of your bones. You don't see many IMA masters with gigantism, for example.

That is why for beginners the body shakes a lot, because the skeletal frame is stressed over its own weight.

I'm pretty sure beginners shake simply because they're tired...


I think Sprint asked this already, but what if the practitioner in question has osteoporosis? Isn't this "consensus" you speak of nothing but a hypothesis? Where is the evidence?

[Chris McKinley]

There are a great number of claims made in the traditional folklore of CMA and TCM practices. Because they don't come from a culture where all such claims are subjected to objective scientific scrutiny via the scientific method, they are often accepted at face value solely based on the fact that they are traditional and/or the claim was made by someone respected. That may have flown in China (perhaps even for hundreds of years), but it no longer sells in Poughkeepsie. The truth does not fear inquiry, and those claims which actually are true will be born out by legitimate scrutiny. Those that are not need to be shown as such anyway.


He Shou Wu,

Do you have any actual background in one of the biological sciences? If so, what exactly? This thread is rife with intellectually dishonest scientific claims, mostly coming from you. Sprint, Ian and others have done an admirable job applying actual scientific thought to your claims, and I applaud the use of critical thinking it represents. The treatment has essentially weakened your claims to the point of dismissal. Now, this is unfortunate, but you are faced with a choice of either accepting such refutal or coming up with more specific evidence. At the very least, you will have to provide a convincing argument (not just a claim) that zhan zhuang qualifies as the kind of exercise which provides the necessary load intensity to induce the density increase to which you refer.

[He Shou Wu]

The truth does not fear inquiry, and those claims which actually are true will be born out by legitimate scrutiny. Those that are not need to be shown as such anyway.

Chris, I agree with this statement and respect the inquiry. I did base my post on an old theory hearsay, my apologizes. You've intrigued me enough to research this more in depth. I'd be happy to conduct a study on the effects of ZZ and bone density via DEXA. I'm sure some colleagues of mine would also be happy to participate. If any of you would like to participate please send me a PM.

[martialartist]

define precisely zhan zhuang. is it something done while relaxed or not? the meaning of the term itself and the origin of its usage are not exactly well-defined.

[Josealb]

Standing meditation aka static pole training. Done relaxed but maintaining the correct frame and letting gravity work, then using visualization to add effect..thats it in a nutshell at a basic level. No hocus pocus or vagueness, IMO.