difference between PH and pummeling drills?

[everything]

Pummeling comes up a lot on the gripfighting and ph threads. Seems very similar to ph with a lot of helpful crossover

That leads me to wonder about the differences. Seems like:
- push hands is concerned with grappling and throwing but also striking to some extent
- push hands is not really concerned with ground grappling, like wresting is as its primary focus
- as a result of the different range emphasis, ph tends to have more upright stance

could be wrong... what does the board say?

[GrahamB]

Don't mistake push hands as some kind of drill done at a certain range. Push hands is actually about learning to apply the strategy of Tai Chi Chuan (based around the idea of yielding to force to overcome it) - you could do that in any exercise you like, it just so happens that push hands is the one that comes in the box labeled "Tai Chi". Treating it just as "a certain range that you work in" is missing the point by a country mile, in my humble opinion

[everything]

ok, I see what you're saying. for the purposes of this thread, how about limiting "push hands drills" and "push hands" to this description: push hands drills that are usually practiced at standing range close enough to have arms touching, e.g., fixed step push hands drills...

[GrahamB]

ok, I see what you're saying. for the purposes of this thread, how about limiting "push hands drills" and "push hands" to this description: push hands drills that are usually practiced at standing range close enough to have arms touching, e.g., fixed step push hands drills...

LOL! So you mean, ignore everything I said an carry on anyway? Sure, be my guest, the floor is all yours, I'll sit this one out

[everything]

lol yes, guess so. not interested in the broad "what is tai chi" question, just drill crossover.

[Brady]

what is "pummeling"

[bailewen]

Pummeling is a wrestling drill where you basically just fight for hooks. It's kind of like grip fighting with no gi.

[Walk the Torque]

Do they use four ounces of pressure during pummeling?

This is a very important part of PH training.

[johnwang]

Pummeling is a wrestling drill where you basically just fight for hooks. It's kind of like grip fighting with no gi.

Taiji guys are very similar to Judo guys. They don't like "grip fight". They prefer to let you garb whatever that you like and allow you to move in any way that you like and then borrow your force to against you. If it's not "minimum effort, maximum result", it's not Taiji or Judo. I don't know this kind of thinking is good or bad for the future development of both arts but it's man made "restriction" and also has too much "style in mind" and that's for sure.

You can have freedom to do anything as long as it can help you in combat. You can also "restrict" yourself and be loyal to your style. As long as it makes you happy, everything else is not important.

[everything]

I like the "minimum effort" or "4 oz" ideal, not because of judo or taiji but because there is always someone stronger and it's easy to gas. I see push hands partly as training that helps with gripfighting. Any part of the arm or body should be able to at least do a small redirection.

[johnwang]

You may be able to use "minimum effort" to solve earmark problem in congress but you may need "maximum effort" to solve US economic crises. Everybody like the "4 oz" idea but it just won't be able to solve all your problems. It's better to have more than 1 tool in your toolbox.

[Brady]

Taiji guys are very similar to Judo guys. They don't like "grip fight".

John, I think you are stuck on "traditional" Judo. 95% of high level Judo these days is grip fighting, internationally.

Pummeling and PH are VERY different, both very fun. I work with alot of variations of both, someday maybe we'll make some clips of them. If you mix these two drills though, you get sparring, which is more fun than both haha.

[johnwang]

I have heard from the Judo forum that "grip fight" are not even allowed in some local Judo clubs.

[Brady]

Hmm, interesting. I can't say I've ever been exposed to that.
My coach sounds alot more like you, and used to come up behind me while in randori and sweep my legs when I held a grip more than 5 seconds. Broke me of my wrestler's habit quick.
Also, every high level match I've seen is majority grip fight and positioning, but I believe this is sometimes discouraged to make it more entertaining for the average joe.

[oldtyger]

I don't know much about wrestling or judo. However I think I surmise what pummeling is. In my opinion push hands skills can be very advantageous to a grappling art. I did learn a little BJJ and I found my taijiquan skills helped a lot--not only in stand-up drills in prevention of take-downs but also in the ground game due to the sensitivity skills from push hands. Push hands drills are pretty different from pummeling because the objective is different but the skills learned can easily be adapted I think.