Martial Arts for Toddlers

[Nick C]

Having two young kids this issue has come up in my household too - with both kids very interested in learning 'Kung Fu', we are however focussing them on swimming lessions, sports, and for my daughter yoga, dancing and music at the moment (Girls seem to love kids Yoga - boys seem to find the concentration level too much at a young age IME) which they both love doing.

I have made sure they both know how to make a proper fist, and tried to show them how to relax and how to move when someone pushes you (leading) as when I was growing up the most common start to 'fights' was a pushing contest. But I personally have been waiting for them to reach a level of maturaty where they can participate in a class without causing too many distractions, and they can follow basic body directions - and now have enough spare time! - to learn MA. I dont see a need to hurry this too much.

I do think a level of fighting is natural in kids, and showing some minor MA stuff during play can be very benefitial to them. You have to watch out though - telling my kids about going for hands when using a sword has made toy lightsaber 'fights' much more interesting for me! lol But it has also given me the opportunity to discuss with them fighting, and that they can only do this sort of thing with Dad (ie when is it appropriate and when not) etc. Which controls their agression a little I think.

Personally I plan to introduce them to Shaolin first, and if they like it continue to give them a good grounding in MA before doing any Tai Chi with them through their teenage years (hopefully).

[internalenthusiast]

not to argue with anyone, but a couple thoughts...

reasons i liked the original clip caliG posted:

to me, the clip illustrated (in game form), some basic principles of spatial/anatomical and momentum relationship. it was clearly cooperative (of course), and teaching based.

the emphasis was not on hurting (on the adult's or the child's part), but on the child finding, flowing with, and changing what was being presented. it was like some "puzzles" were being presented by the adult, and the child was invited to solve them.
i personally, did not pick up on any signals from the child that he was uncomfortable with this. i think i would have felt very comfortable with this kind of game, and would have found it fun, given that it was my dad playing with me, and it was affectionate.

when i was three, my dad tried to help me by tossing a(n american) football around. i couldn't catch it well, and for many years felt some shame in my memories of this. (and, LOL, even at three, i didn't like being called "butterfingers".) then, a developmental psychologist told me that this task (catching the football) was actually too advanced for a three year old. this (as silly as it may sound) was actually a real relief for me to find out many years later!

similarly, my dad tried to play chess with me when i was age 5. it was an ok experience, and he gave me handicaps. but i could never beat him. (not that that was the point, i know). but again, the thing i took away is: "i'm not good at this."

in both cases my dad was only doing the right thing: trying to help me develop in ways by playing with me. i'm very grateful for that. and i know i learned from both things.

i also was sent to some movement/eurythmics classes when very young. these were kind of fun, but i also felt somewhere they were a bit "sissy" (just my immature judgment). and instinctively i felt i'd enjoy something with contact, and not just moving in space to rhythm. there was a lot of skipping around the room. (yes i know, bruce/shooter, but i wasn't old enough or experienced enough to understand the value yet. )

so: some things i liked about the clip: it deals in a game-like fashion with contact/touch, flow, problem solving, etc., in ways that reinforce skills, while being a bit of a romp. (romping around is something i do remember loving from that age--i loved the contact.) the emphasis is not on "winning", or even "being competent vis a vis an adult who is trying to beat you". rather it's a friendly game which involves contact, listening and response. there's not a "winner", only the invitation to play and present a response. there's also no indication that the exercise is about hurting or punishing anyone.

i agree with caliG that the muay thai example is beyond what i think most children should be subjected to at a young age. there is such a thing as innocence, and that must be respected.

later, in childhood playground fights, it's not usually so much (in my experience) that you want to hurt someone, so much as defend yourself. as bruce/shooter said, it's a boundary thing. but the sense of ease, listening, and relationship skills evidenced by caliG's clip, seem to me like they'd feed in very well. i ran into more people trying to beat me on the playground, than i did trying to beat me at chess.

i don't think it's as much a question of teaching a child to want to hurt (which i have real questions about, at that young age), but of dealing with physical contact, sensing flow, and responding. those skills may be indirect, but they seem to me to be life-long in their applicability. not only for physical altercations, but also for skill in human relationships.

that's why i said i'd wished i'd had that kind of training/mentorship at that age.

best...

[everything]

You never know what motivates a particular child. Sometimes they notice something is like light saber fighting (yeah, it's dorky but who doesn't love Star Wars) or something silly like that. Sometimes we sort of push hands on a little wall or a little hill, and they figure out to pull one way to push me the other way. Sometimes we do a guard passing game. We've been able to play one of those games where you try to push each other off a platform with a giant pole with foam pads on the ends. Sometimes games are made up that relate to other television shows or movies. Tickling, fake wrestling, chasing, and pillow fights are great. There is endless, fun variety - fun should be the key.

[internalenthusiast]

fun should be the key.

i'd agree with that.

[CaliG]

later, in childhood playground fights, it's not usually so much (in my experience) that you want to hurt someone, so much as defend yourself. as bruce/shooter said, it's a boundary thing. but the sense of ease, listening, and relationship skills evidenced by caliG's clip, seem to me like they'd feed in very well. i ran into more people trying to beat me on the playground, than i did trying to beat me at chess.

i don't think it's as much a question of teaching a child to want to hurt (which i have real questions about, at that young age), but of dealing with physical contact, sensing flow, and responding. those skills may be indirect, but they seem to me to be life-long in their applicability. not only for physical altercations, but also for skill in human relationships.

that's why i said i'd wished i'd had that kind of training/mentorship at that age.

best...

I agree usually fights in the preteen years are more of a game of domination or bullying. One kid puts the other in a headlock or sits on him or shoves him and a winner emerges.

So I think we're onto something if we can teach sensitivity and body awareness in some way so the kid can overcome that it could be enough. In the Systema clip a father puts an arm around the kid from behind, in the much the same way a bully would hold someone to "have a talk" with them and the kid figures out how he could get out, of course it'll probably take a little more strength but this is building neuro pathways into the kid's brain that may be used later.

Looking back at being a kid I can remember one time watching some "professional" wrestling and there was one time when the guys went to blows and one guy blocked the other guy's combination. The announcer was showing what happened in slo mo and I decided I'd use that in my next "fight." Sure enough some troubled kid wanted a ball and I said no so it went to blows, but all I did was block his punches and I was fine while he got in trouble. I remember being so proud of myself for figuring out how to deal with "the fight."

I think teaching a kid a few tricks is a positive thing to do, anything to build sensitivity and reaction times as well as it being a godd bonding experience may help the kid in a tight situation, although as adults it may not seem like a big deal but when you're a little kid being shoved around by a bully is a big deal. It makes sense to me to pass on some of that knowledge we have to our children.

[RobP2]

There is an interesting theory that under reall pressure people flip back to an earlier age when they experienced similar pressure. Perhaps that's why sometimes even highyl trained people revert to "playground punching". In that sense there is maybe not such a big distinction between kids and adults. The difference is adults like to do something deadly serious, in which they are learning important stuff, where kids just roll around and play fight. We tend to pick up all sorts of inhibitions as we "grow up" whichi take us away from that free movement, then spend years trying to get it back through non-free movement

[yusuf]

i like the idea of teaching kids lu from tai chi, plus the evasive stepping from aikido... it's usually enough and no accusations of being violent, even though the atatcker normally ends up planting his face in the schoolyard tarmac..

[Dmitri]

(Getting late into this thread, but...)

Agreed w/Chris, etc.

It's very cute to watch my almost-5-year-old boy try to "be martial" and "do taiji" and "do jiu-jitsu" (from seeing his 9-year-old sister practice at her GJJ class)... But "cute" is sort'a where I leave it -- and he's far from being a toddler... And, I'm not going to start him on any "structured MA" for the next couple of years, too, -- I think it's still too early. 7 or 8 is probably an OK age to start regular classes (4 times a week for his sister).

I did start to "roll" with him very recently because he initiated it. Some very-very basic ideas -- try to get on top (or other good position) and stay there, never turn your back to your opponent, etc.

What I also have been doing with both of them, since they started to walk, are some basic "push-hands" ideas, i.e. as I play with them I try to disrupt their balance, knock them over (onto a couch) in a most subtle and efficient way that I possibly can, i.e. I'm working with them at the same level as I do or would with any taiji player (without strikes, etc.) -- and they don't even know it, it's just part of rolling around and having fun. I think that's building in some very good and useful (martially or not) ideas without any specific theme or "martial" association. They're their own people, it's quite silly to expect them to grow up and enjoy MA as much as I have.

Haven't watched the first clip, but getting toddlers to punch ain't the right idea IMHO.

FWIW

[Darthwing Teorist]

The kid is not punching. Just evading and pushing at most. His movements are pretty good he DOES seem to find this fun.

[Dmitri]

OK, watched the clip (enough of it to get the idea...)

This is clearly not teaching violence, but I would question WHAT exactly it is teaching him? Systema-style techniques and conditioning him to the fact that a small wrist movement can send a guy a few times his size to the ground?

Not my cup-o-tea, but of course to each their own.

[GrahamB]

Dmitri, Dmitri, sigh.... don't you know there's no "techniques" in systema - only principles. When are you going to learn?

[Darthwing Teorist]

OK, watched the clip (enough of it to get the idea...)

This is clearly not teaching violence, but I would question WHAT exactly it is teaching him? Systema-style techniques and conditioning him to the fact that a small wrist movement can send a guy a few times his size to the ground?

Not my cup-o-tea, but of course to each their own.

I think that Internalenthusiast had a good explanation:

to me, the clip illustrated (in game form), some basic principles of spatial/anatomical and momentum relationship. it was clearly cooperative (of course), and teaching based.

the emphasis was not on hurting (on the adult's or the child's part), but on the child finding, flowing with, and changing what was being presented. it was like some "puzzles" were being presented by the adult, and the child was invited to solve them.
i personally, did not pick up on any signals from the child that he was uncomfortable with this. i think i would have felt very comfortable with this kind of game, and would have found it fun, given that it was my dad playing with me, and it was affectionate.

Also, someone else said that it helps the kid develop the sensitivity and necessary skills, neuropathways, to deal with bully attacks. It is obvious that the teacher exaggerates his rolling around to A) help the kid see the effects of his action, B) motivate him by giving him positive feedback and C) entertain him. I doubt that the teacher lets the kid believe that he can toss adults around. He could have acted better if that was the case.

[Dmitri]

I didn't see it as "it was like some "puzzles" were being presented by the adult, and the child was invited to solve them" -- it seems that the kid was shown beforehand what "moves" require which "reaction" (although I may be wrong, too.)

Anyway, it's not that bad, -- just not something I would do with mine. Way too much cooperation, to my taste; IMO it does NOT teach "necessary skills, neuropathways, to deal with bully attacks" (Again, I may be wrong, but that's how I see it.)

"help the kid see the effects of his action" -- but these are NOT effects of his actions, at all.

[CaliG]

Well unless the other 3 year old is one of those MT fighters or trained in hardcore Shaolin I disagree.

I've seen 3 year olds "fight" and often times they just grab the other kids arm/hand and yank on it, which is the kind of thing the kid is being trained in. Just as in BJJ you first learn a technique without resistance, this kid is too.

Sure he's not going to take anyone out with his knowledge but he is slowly learning how to escape from holds. This is the same thing they do in BJJ. Often times in class well have someone mount us (for example) and with opponent only using 50% resistance we work on our escapes.

As far as the father flipping, he's just trying to make it fun.

[Darthwing Teorist]

"help the kid see the effects of his action" -- but these are NOT effects of his actions, at all.

True. The feedback is what it should happen in an ideal situation. It is also exaggerated. But I see nothing wrong with that: the child has to start learning somewhere and exaggeration is usually a way to get the point across to a child's mind.

As for movements, I have the feeling that the kid was certainly taught certain things. When you teach principles to newbies and especially to children, you have to give them some basis to start working from. While exploration of personal movement is a basic principle, at the same time if a student does not figure something out or if he does something wrong, he has to be shown. When a teacher demonstrates the drill, he certainly shows a set of basic techniques, derived from principles but still a set of things that a new student can emulate. So, I think that showing kids what the goal of the drill is, it does give them something to emulate. This is not necessarily bad or against the exploring principle: they can work from there and be encouraged if they do something not shown and that may work. It takes a good teacher, that knows his stuff, in order to do this and not mess up the kid by giving him a false illusion of invincibility.