how do you train for survival?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

how do you train for survival?

Postby ashe on Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:24 pm

Title: How do you train for survival?
Post by Arthur Ian Wellesley on May 4th, 2008, 4:54am

How do you train for 'the really real' reality of violence?

I'm talking about professional criminals, amateur thugs, terrorists etc.

Imagine, say, a United 93 scenario - you've just been informed that three aircraft have been flown into the WTC and the Pentagon, and you now you need to act.

Does your training reflect that?



How do you train for such scenarios? Push hands? (Just kidding :) )

Xingyi guys take pride in the fact that their art was developed and tested on the battlefield.
Chen stylists also talk about how their art was used in battle.

I don't know much about bagua, but I've heard impressive stories of its warrior culture.

Our modern 'battlefield' is largely the urban environment. How do you train to become an urban warrior?

If you don't bother with this kind of stuff, that's fine as well, as long as you're honest about it.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Zhong Kui on May 4th, 2008, 5:35am

Don't bother with it. I leave that to Meynard.

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by T J LePetomane on May 4th, 2008, 7:44am

First by being aware and unafraid, that alone knocks out about 75% of the danger.

After that, by being courteous, polite, and respectful, even when someone is being intentionally rude and trying to start something, that knocks out about 20%.

Lastly, doing T'ai Chi Ch'uan. It cultivates those other qualities and makes it hard for the average schmuck to do anything. Which takes care of the remaining 5%.

For cases of home invasion, etc, I keep a lot of long sharp things within easy reach and am not shy about skewering.

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by T J LePetomane on May 4th, 2008, 7:45am

Oh, and the dirty dozen, low kicks, head grabs and twists, neck shots, all that jazz.
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Royal_Dragon on May 4th, 2008, 10:29am

I stockpile guns ammo and MRE's in a hidden underground bunker in the mountains, along with bigger guns, some grenades and more ammo.

In addition to that, I have plenty of knives, swords, Archery supplies and bows, and more ammo.

Oh, that and home made brewing gear a Still and supplies.

Can't forget the 50lbs bags of rice, and 55 gallon drums of water....and more ammo.

Oh, and beans too, cases and cases of Bush's baked beans ;D
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Royal_Dragon on May 4th, 2008, 10:30am

and cases of spaghetti 'Os too!

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Royal_Dragon on May 4th, 2008, 10:30am

and more ammo...

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Royal_Dragon on May 4th, 2008, 10:30am

;D

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Felipe_Bido on May 4th, 2008, 11:03am

Plenty of awareness. It's better to put some emphasis on the avoidance the conflict, than how to deal with conflict itself.

For example, here in the DR, the robberies and assaults have increased. And when you go out to a bar, there's 80% of chance that the night ends with a fight, at least in my town (and I'm talking about two people fighting with bottles, throwing chairs, a bystander shooting a few rounds to 'calm things down').

So, I have focused more in how to avoid these things (If someone calls you when you are walking the street, never turn suddenly towards them. The guy could sucker punch you or just shove a knife in your ribcage to ask for your wallet; it's better to walk a few steps and then turn, to keep distance; if you are in a bar, you have to know the exits and alyways keep your eyes open, never sitting with your back to the other people, etc. ). And etcetera.

For an actual confrontation, my training has become more and more simplified. More on the 'quick and dirty' side. And using the enviroment ;).
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Chanchu on May 4th, 2008, 11:14am

Aware

On the street if you are awake and appear awake that helps- thugs may not want to take a chance.
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_fish on May 4th, 2008, 11:18am

If you are talking about breakdown of society, civil unrest etc., then nothing short of real survival training will give you a fighting chance. Knowing what plants are edible, how to trap, kill, skin and prepare an animal, how to rig a booby trap etc. Essential Ranger, Pararecon, or SAS training.

If you are just talking tough neighborhood - spend a few days in East New York or the South Bronx or the less savory parts of D.C., LA, or Atlanta (or the public housing in London) and you will quickly gain your street smarts.

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by jafc on May 4th, 2008, 11:30am

I think quite a while back someone quoted a lengthy article on training & performing. the upshot of it was that the closer your training mimics your intended performance; the more likely your skills will transfer. While this is not to say that all training must be reality based, clearly more exposure is a more reliable way to ensure a good outcome.
that much being said, i have seen enough people in the ER to realize that alcohol & an attitude can lead to trouble right quick. Like Felipe said, most situations are completely avoidable with awareness, humility & common sense.
JC

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Big_Phat_Wong on May 4th, 2008, 11:55am

on 05/04/08 at 11:18:29, kenneth_fish wrote:
If you are just talking tough neighborhood - spend a few days in East New York or the South Bronx or the less savory parts of D.C., LA, or Atlanta (or the public housing in London) and you will quickly gain your street smarts.



QFT

Like they said, complete 360 awareness is the first and best line of defense. Walking erect (huh huh) , keeping your head on a swivel, and not letting anyone approach you within 6 feet can all help prevent you from being blindsided/cornered. Both times I've been mugged at gunpoint I was not paying attention to these concepts.

"Extend your Ki", as Morihei would say.

Also, being peaceful goes a long way. If you're peaceful, 90% of the time you won't have to fight.

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Arthur Ian Wellesley on May 4th, 2008, 6:52pm

on 05/04/08 at 11:03:09, Felipe_Bido wrote:
For an actual confrontation, my training has become more and more simplified. More on the 'quick and dirty' side.



That's one thing that I think is lacking in my training. I mean I do it a bit, but not nearly enough.

I want to talk about that United Airlines Flight 93 situation.

So three males - two armed with knives and one armed with a bomb - are herding you to the back of the plane. One man has been stabbed. Over the plane intercom you hear one hijacker state that he's returning to the airport, but you know two planes have hit the WTC and one has hit the Pentagon. Every second of hesitation is an extra second against you.

It doesn't have to be a hijacking, or even terrorism. Basically any situation in which avoidance is no longer possible.

I'm starting to agree with John more and more. You need to be fast, ruthless, and deadly.

Question for JW - what are the concepts behind 3sk?

And a question for everyone - how do you train courage?


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_fish on May 4th, 2008, 6:59pm

You cannot train courage. Courage under fire is simply doing what, if you thought about it for a moment, would scare the shit out of you. Ask anyone who has been in a combat zone.
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Arthur Ian Wellesley on May 4th, 2008, 7:09pm

That's what I used to think.

I'm not pretending to have any answers, and I'm hoping that people with more experience than I can chip in.

One thing I notice is that you can gradually become innoculated to stress. Trivial examples, but people can learn to become placid in the face of going to the dentist, flying in a storm, skydiving, swimming with sharks. The fear is still present, but now their reaction is to look around and see what they can do about it, whereas their past reaction would be to suffer paroxysms of fear and paralysis.

Certain practices and experiences can make people hardier and less likely to hesitate.

To paraphrase Sonny Puzikas: people think they'll rise to the occasion in a crisis, but really, they fall back on your lowest level of training.

So what is that training?
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by T J LePetomane on May 4th, 2008, 7:14pm

on 05/04/08 at 18:52:42, Arthur Ian Wellesley wrote:
That's one thing that I think is lacking in my training. I mean I do it a bit, but not nearly enough.

I want to talk about that United Airlines Flight 93 situation.

So three males - two armed with knives and one armed with a bomb - are herding you to the back of the plane. One man has been stabbed. Over the plane intercom you hear one hijacker state that he's returning to the airport, but you know two planes have hit the WTC and one has hit the Pentagon. Every second of hesitation is an extra second against you.

It doesn't have to be a hijacking, or even terrorism. Basically any situation in which avoidance is no longer possible.

I'm starting to agree with John more and more. You need to be fast, ruthless, and deadly.

Question for JW - what are the concepts behind 3sk?

And a question for everyone - how do you train courage?


What would you do if you were hit by lightning? How do you train to survive that?

Statistically speaking, it's far more likely.

That being said. Wear a thick leather jacket when you fly, that'll give you some measure of protection from the blade. Which will be your biggest concern.

Second, get comfortable with the sight of innocent bystanders being cut to bits while you play Rambo. Chances are as soon as you're identified as a threat, a woman or child will be used as a human shield, and to take the fight out of you.

Of course, that could always work in your favor, too, by inciting others into action.

Third, work on short-power techniques and small-frame, you don't have any room for leaping kicks or mounting in the confined space of an airplane.

Fourth, get a Bob, practice ripping the throat out, stabbing it with a pencil or pen, or whatever other small object you can reasonably take on an airplane these days that may work as a weapon.

Fifth, head down to the pound and get yourself a decent sized dog. Kill it with your bare hands, or any of the objects you've practiced with as weapons. Get some fake id and repeat as often as possible.

Or just study some decent bagua.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Arthur Ian Wellesley on May 4th, 2008, 7:31pm

on 05/04/08 at 19:14:30, T J LePetomane wrote:
What would you do if you were hit by lightning? How do you train to survive that?

Statistically speaking, it's far more likely.


I already know how to prevent getting struck by lightning.

I think you know what I mean. The hijacking example was to illustrate the type of scenario I'm talking about, i.e. any situation in which prevention is no longer an option.

Appreciate your serious comments.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_fish on May 4th, 2008, 8:17pm

The examples you note are, as you state, trivial. Very different from being shot at or having your life threatened. I can tell you from experience that a certain part of your rational mind turns off in these cases, and you react without regard to the consequences (if you act). Some go into shock, or fall to pieces. Really, I am serious when I say ask a combat veteran. The above scenarios are why military (basic) training is the way it is - you learn to react without thinking under conditions of unimaginable stress. Or die.
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by bruce on May 4th, 2008, 8:20pm

on 05/04/08 at 11:18:29, kenneth_fish wrote:
, Pararecon, or SAS training.

If you are just talking tough neighborhood - spend a few days in East New York or the South Bronx or the less savory parts of D.C., LA, or Atlanta (or the public housing in London) and you will quickly gain your street smarts.


i live in atlanta in the "old 4th ward" (the hood) just last night when i was outside doing tai chi there was a gun fight between some of our local drug thugs who "work" on boulevard between ponce and north ave. it is a must to be aware of your surroundings here.
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_fish on May 4th, 2008, 8:24pm

I was in that area last year - it gave me the chills -reminded me of a neighborhood I spent far too much time in in Brooklyn (and which, at that time, was I believe even worse. But that is like rating the levels of hell).

The awful thing about living in such places is that you live in a constant state of mild paranoia - and it makes for difficult times relating to surroundings where that state of mind is not appropriate.

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Arthur Ian Wellesley on May 4th, 2008, 8:48pm

on 05/04/08 at 20:17:49, kenneth_fish wrote:
Really, I am serious when I say ask a combat veteran.



Kenneth, that's what I'm doing!

I've been in emergencies where the lives of others hung by a thread, but never my own. From my experience, I know that I start to think in terms of seconds and microseconds. Every single moment counts.

And I'm the type of person to act. I don't freeze. At least, that's my limited experience.

That's why I'm asking. I'd like to see how we can develop that decisiveness as martial artists.

Thanks for the input, and if you have any other thoughts, please share.
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_fish on May 4th, 2008, 9:14pm

Since you are currently adopting the guise of an English Field Marshall, I will quote another British soldier: "There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at without result". to which I would add, after the fact.

The first time you realize you have actual bullets flying about you (or in my case, have one hit you) you experience (at least briefly) terror. If you are fortunate, you "shift gears" and go into a mode where your actions are seen as if in the third person - you react, and are detached, and do whatever seems most appropriate - whether diving for cover (I did that for a long time whenever firecrackers went off) and/or firing back. The first time you are face to face (if you are lucky) with someone who is trying to kill you (say, with a knife) you may experience an odd kind of rage - and an adrenaline surge unlike anything you have ever known.

In my case, I tend to put everything aside for the moment and, very focused, attack. (I was told by one of my cohorts that he had never seen anyone seem so calm and so intent in such dangerous situations). In the back of my mind though I was screaming in terror and rage. In each case, when I was over, I fell to pieces for a while.
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Arthur Ian Wellesley on May 5th, 2008, 12:33am

Kenneth,

How did that happen?

Also, when you react, do you find that your training reveals itself, or does it go straight out the window?

Here are some drills we perform in class, for working under pressure:

-One person draws his gun (airsoft) and fires. Everyone else immediately goes to the ground, and finds cover.

-One person surprises you with a slap to the face. You instinctively strike back at a pad he's holding / strike back at his head or stomach.

-You have your back turned to a group of people. The group decides amongst themselves that one of them will attack you. You turn around, and they attack. Your goal is to instinctively defend, take him down, finish and run.

-Everyone carries airsoft pistols. One person bursts into the room and starts shooting. Everyone has to find cover or change elevation and position, and return fire.

-You put your hands on your partner's chest. As soon as your partner makes a sudden move, you strike, control, take him down, or all three.

Any comments?

edit: YES we're obviously playing Rambo. Can we move on from that? ;)

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_fish on May 5th, 2008, 4:32am

How did I get shot? I was in combat.

What I found in civilian life was that having had that experience, everything else was less terrifying. Also, in civilian life, my martial arts training (which relied heavily on reaction drills) has been very useful - and a mix of reaction, instinct, and conscious control.

I would have to see the training you are doing to comment. It can either be very useful, or get you killed.

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_delves on May 5th, 2008, 9:15am

Unfortunately the only way to know is experience the real thing, this means you may get killed. Is this an acceptable risk. The MA and other forms of training prepare you but you never know how you react until you experience it. I was brought up in wartime London, every day was a survival experience but I realized many years later it was an invaluable experience, When I was later serving National Service when involved combat I would manage to focus my fear and remain calm
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_fish on May 5th, 2008, 9:45am

Ian:

If you can meet up with any SAS trained folks you might do well to get their input on your training. They tend to know their stuff.
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Darthwing Teorist on May 5th, 2008, 12:25pm Visualisations help with this kind of thing. I used to also think about this stuff about a year ago. Now, I just go on with my training and my life. If shit happens, it happens no matter my training or not. I do believe enough in my own training to know that it may give me a chance of survival.

Have read Kevin's Path of the Ronin? It's great for visualisations (I know that I posted the link a few times, but here it is again: http://www.montrealsystema.com/uploads/ ... _RONIN.pdf)


Every book I read on the subject, from Deep Survival to SAS Training, said that while the way you train and the way you live can prepare you for success or failure in such desperate situations, there are other factors as well. Basically, like it was already pointed out, you cannot know for sure how you will react. And even if you had previous successful experience with survival situations, this does not mean that you may pass the test next time. Your chances may be higher, but you may also find the odd combination of circumstances where your training may fail you. Can you overcome this? Who knows?

IMO, it is good to sincerely ask ourselves this question from time to time and take the appropiate measures. But is it really worth losing any sleep over it? I know from personal experience that it is not easy to not get engaged in this, but once you took the right measures, it is better to enjoy living. While it may be a sign that your mind is working in the background to solve an important problem for you, worrying may affect your awareness which can prove detrimental to your goal.

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_fish on May 5th, 2008, 1:06pm

Then of course, there is the alternative approach

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Andy_S on May 5th, 2008, 6:42pm

SNIP
And I'm the type of person to act. I don't freeze. At least, that's my limited experience.
SNIP

Acting is good, acting obtrusively is not - you become a target and so get attacked before you can attack. Be the grey man.

It is an odd thing: Many self defense experts suggest looking big strong and confident as this will keep predators at bay in the urban jungle. Maybe. But I suspect that in very high risk situations, the macho guy - or the guy who appears macho - is the one who gets it first.

"When entering a room full of armed men, always shoot one. That gets their attention."
- Paddy Mayne

Ideally, you don't want to be the one who gets shot right off the bat.

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Arthur Ian Wellesley on May 5th, 2008, 7:03pm

on 05/05/08 at 12:25:45, Darthwing Teorist wrote:
IMO, it is good to sincerely ask ourselves this question from time to time and take the appropiate measures. But is it really worth losing any sleep over it? I know from personal experience that it is not easy to not get engaged in this, but once you took the right measures, it is better to enjoy living. While it may be a sign that your mind is working in the background to solve an important problem for you, worrying may affect your awareness which can prove detrimental to your goal.


I agree. That's why I'm not losing any sleep over it. I'm just asking :)

The way I think about it is this: apart from the obvious benefits of being prepared (Scouts' motto!), a lot of the people whom we look up to as martial artists have had real world experience.

-Mikhail Ryabko
-Vladimir Vasiliev
-Su dong chen
-Chang dong sheng

If I'm to become a teacher later in life, what happens if a student wants to access that information? Am I going to be part of a generation solely responsible for watering down the martial arts? I hope not.

I always use Valentin Vasiliev as the standard, because he's the martial artist who impresses me the most, and I like his style.

Valentin says there are three areas of training:

-slow/easy
-fast/hard
-crisis/chaos

He says the third area is completely different than what you'd expect, but it should always inform the first two areas. If you can't get that information first-hand, you should get it from professionals.

So for example, I asked him about switching grips while holding your sidearm. He said don't worry about that. You think too much. It's easier just to return fire.

So we did this drill. Well... not really a drill because it was unannounced. We were sitting at the table, eating and drinking. Everyone had an airsoft pistol. Valentin went out and came back in with his AK and started 'shooting'. We immediately scrambled, found cover, returned fire.

It's not like I'm turning into a paranoid gun nut and stashing pemican and shotgun shells in my bunker. This type of training is fun, free of paranoia and machismo. It's just a personal preference - train for survival or train for competition.

A lot of work we do it focused on pure reaction, while you recover and regain control of your conscious mind. So if someone bitchslaps you, you can't just stand there in shock, because the next strike's already on its way. You need to respond instinctively, like withdrawing your hand from a hot stove. If you hear shots, you can't just stand there: you need to change your position, elevation, rhythm etc.

Also, the thing I like about Valentin's class is that the training is tough. The fast/hard mimics crisis/chaos. There are times where you fear for your own safety. Other times you're thrown in the deep end and asked to cope. It's always slightly more than you can handle.

For example, one great drill is having tables and chairs strewn across the training area. Get a group of 20 or so guys, and everyone hits everyone else, eyes closed, breath held to increase the panic. Lots of bloody lips and bruised faces, but there are more valuable lessons packed in that 10 minute drill than a whole year of forms, IMHO.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Darthwing Teorist on May 6th, 2008, 9:02am

Hey Ian! I entirely agree with you.

I am also looking for real life experience for the very same reason: I would like to eventually teach and I don't want to teach a waterd down version of what I learn, out of respect for my teachers.

For this reason, I am looking to do some easy security work. Start with the easier crowd control stuff during festival season and maybe move to something where I can get even more experience. However, I am starting a family and I have the obligation to stay more or less safe for them.

It was one thing that Kevin mentioned us: it is better to be a kindergarden security with the right attitude (awareness, form etc) than a cop with the wrong one. That thing stayed with me.

FWIW, I appreciate your t3h r34! posts.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by T J LePetomane on May 6th, 2008, 9:07am

Darthwing, look on craigslist, if you're near a major city there are plenty of Nightclub security gigs you should be able to get involved with.

The new trend in the places you want to work is a strong customer service focus. They want guys who are tough, but not tough guys, if you know what I mean. It's getting to be more and more about the mental gung fu game, and less about how much you can bench.

And there's a reason they call it "Standing Post", you get a lot of great standing practice in, with scenery to rival that of Mt. Tai! :)

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Darthwing Teorist on May 6th, 2008, 11:15am

Thanks!

I already spoke with my teachers as they have contacts with security companies. An advice that I liked, is to start with a low-risk gig, like festival security.

The only thing is, that I already have a good job. I have to find something that is part time and not very often (due to family and training obligations).

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Plante on May 6th, 2008, 11:24am

When I was In Montreal, one guy from my class did some gigs in a hotel downtown. He was working for a big security company part time. This is the kind of job you're looking for...

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by T J LePetomane on May 6th, 2008, 11:25am

Just stay away from the uniformed rent-a-cop deals, you get absolutely zero street cred for that. ;D

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Darthwing Teorist on May 6th, 2008, 1:19pm

We'll see what I can get, then I will choose. I know that I have some serious limitations when it comes to time, so not every company will accept me.

It's a project that I had on my mind for a while now. I just wanted to mention it to Ian.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Ian on May 7th, 2008, 12:42am

Thanks for the info, Teo. Some food for thought there.

I remember we talked about this before. I'm also looking to get some more exposure.

Some of Valentin's students work the door wearing bulletproof vests. I think I'll start with something a little... softer. haha

I'll have to discuss this with some teachers directly.

Best of luck to you and your training.

Boof! (http://www.systematucson.com/SYSTEMA_Tucson/valentin.html)


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by GrahamBonaparte on May 7th, 2008, 1:59am

on 05/05/08 at 19:03:51, Arthur Ian Wellesley wrote:
Also, the thing I like about Valentin's class is that the training is tough. The fast/hard mimics crisis/chaos. There are times where you fear for your own safety. Other times you're thrown in the deep end and asked to cope. It's always slightly more than you can handle.


Hi Ian,

Thanks for the info - are there any clips on the interweb of this fast/hard training in Systema?


Quote:
For example, one great drill is having tables and chairs strewn across the training area. Get a group of 20 or so guys, and everyone hits everyone else, eyes closed, breath held to increase the panic. Lots of bloody lips and bruised faces, but there are more valuable lessons packed in that 10 minute drill than a whole year of forms, IMHO.


Cool. Sounds like my sparring class last night. Things got a little.....free... ;D

b.t.w. I'm looking for clips of the hard/fast stuff, not neccessarily the mass brawl situations - I've seen a lot of that on t'web already, and tried one briefly once, thanks to our very own RobP.

Cheers,
G
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by kenneth_delves on May 7th, 2008, 2:19pm

Bonaparte, Wellesley, you two guys should meet up and re enact the Peninsular wars


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Andy_S on May 7th, 2008, 8:06pm

Ian/Milord Duke:

Let me get this straight.

You are NOT considering joining the military, becoming a crocodile wrestler or offering to put your skills at the disposal of Osama and his boys...you are training to be an investment banker in HK, right?

And yet you spend your spare time rolling around on the desk firing airsoft pistols at your training partners, and practicing tactical responses to dinner-table attacks by automatic rifle-wielding former Russian Special Forces troops?

And, moreover, you seek experience of "the real thing?"

Why is it that I feel a strong temptation to take the piss coming on?

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by affa on May 7th, 2008, 8:51pm
on 05/07/08 at 20:06:50, Andy_S wrote:
Ian/Milord Duke:

Let me get this straight.

You are NOT considering joining the military, becoming a crocodile wrestler or offering to put your skills at the disposal of Osama and his boys...you are training to be an investment banker in HK, right?

And yet you spend your spare time rolling around on the desk firing airsoft pistols at your training partners, and practicing tactical responses to dinner-table attacks by automatic rifle-wielding former Russian Special Forces troops?

And, moreover, you seek experience of "the real thing?"

Why is it that I feel a strong temptation to take the piss coming on?


storm's brewing. can't you smell it? light and feathery outta the southwest... but in a few days... the grass'll grow... and so will the weeds
:'(


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Ian on May 7th, 2008, 9:11pm

on 05/07/08 at 20:06:50, Andy_S wrote:
you are training to be an investment banker in HK, right?


How very dare you :D

For the record, let me just say that I am not, never have been, and never plan to be an investment banker. And I don't wear camo, walk around in combat boots, blow all my money on 'tactical' equipment etc. etc.

Moreover, I just resigned from my current job. A year behind the desk has convinced me that the corporate environment is not for me. My plan is to open up a lot more time for training.

From imperial bodyguards to law enforcement officers, is it so wrong to occasionally remind ourselves where the sum total of what we do comes from, and what it's for?

IMO, training with serious intent allows you to go deep. Otherwise you're playing on the surface.
Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Ian on May 7th, 2008, 9:16pm

Mr. Udel's coming to visit next week. Maybe he can attest to the fact that I'm just a normal bloke :(


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by I-mon on May 7th, 2008, 9:28pm

congrats on quitting your job Ian ;D


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Ian on May 8th, 2008, 1:59am

Simon,

Thanks! It wasn't for me. Time to move on :)

I think you've got the right idea - travel the world, having adventures, right? :)

on 05/05/08 at 18:42:45, Andy_S wrote:
SNIP
And I'm the type of person to act. I don't freeze. At least, that's my limited experience.
SNIP

Acting is good, acting obtrusively is not - you become a target and so get attacked before you can attack. Be the grey man.

It is an odd thing: Many self defense experts suggest looking big strong and confident as this will keep predators at bay in the urban jungle. Maybe. But I suspect that in very high risk situations, the macho guy - or the guy who appears macho - is the one who gets it first.

"When entering a room full of armed men, always shoot one. That gets their attention."
- Paddy Mayne

Ideally, you don't want to be the one who gets shot right off the bat.


Didn't see this post. Good post.

It reminds me of something Konstantin says in the Personal Protection DVD re: the difference between bodyguard styles. Some companies use heavily armed, muscular bodyguards, some use small, unassuming bodyguards with easily concealed weapons, and some use a mixture of both.

I'm not a huge, strapping male, so I can't really rely on intimidation, even if I wanted to.

What I meant by the importance of action is this: I've been in three situations requiring emergency first aid. In all three instances, everyone (literally everyone, including the professionals) stood there in shock. "omg there's a body on the ground. er..." I was the guy shouting at people to call an ambulance, booting onlookers in the arse to go find someone in uniform, checking the pulse, the breathing, stabilising the head...

Seriously, I think some people would actually just WATCH a person die.

That's another part of training for teh realz - first aid. It's so important to be able to act decisively and correctly in an emergency situation. Every able-bodied adult should have some basic training.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Darth Rock-n-Roll on May 8th, 2008, 8:03am

yes, crowds are pretty much nothing more than rubber necking gawkers who would simply watch as the life slipped away from somebody on the street.

compassion is not a common trait.

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Andy_S on May 8th, 2008, 7:10pm

SNIP
How very dare you
SNIP

Actually, I am a pretty daring kind of a chap.

Today, for example I am wearing WHITE SOCKS to work!

Not many people have that kind of courage, you know.

SNIP
For the record, let me just say that I am not, never have been, and never plan to be an investment banker. And I don't wear camo, walk around in combat boots, blow all my money on 'tactical' equipment etc. etc.
SNIP

Not having been an investment banker: Oh sorry, thought you were.

As for not wearing camo and doing all those other McKinley type things - why not?

SNIP
Moreover, I just resigned from my current job. A year behind the desk has convinced me that the corporate environment is not for me. My plan is to open up a lot more time for training.
SNIP

Good on yer. Do it while you're young, or regret it when you aren't.

SNIP
From imperial bodyguards to law enforcement officers, is it so wrong to occasionally remind ourselves where the sum total of what we do comes from, and what it's for?

IMO, training with serious intent allows you to go deep. Otherwise you're playing on the surface.
SNIP

Playing on the surface suits me fine. Especially when I am swimming.

SNIP
Mr Udel's coming to visit next week. Maybe he can attest to the fact that I'm just a normal bloke
SNIP

Hmmm. I am far from convinced that Udel is qualified to attest to the normality of any bloke. (There again, I would say that for most members of this board....)


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Butterball on May 9th, 2008, 6:22am

I don't know anything about airplane situations like that, but for "survival" in an urban environment I think being in decent shape is best Imo. Being physically strong enough to take some beating and still run away and being in good enough running shape to actually run away for a reasonable distance. Being aware and not taking chances helps too.

I think that is a good generic outline for what covers most of the situations that I am likely to run into. I guess everyones circumstances are different though.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Darthwing Teorist on May 9th, 2008, 8:26am

What if you have bad knees? Huh? Huh? Can you still run away or should you kill everything in sight? ;D


About keeping predators at bay: I do believe that generally martial arts help you to weed out your insecurities so you get closer to true self-confidence. This is reflected in posture, movements and awareness and this is enough to keep most predators at bay, unless you're in a special environment like prisons, military or even firemen (yes, they can be very tough if they don't like you).

So, for me at least, it is not worthy to look intimidating. Of course, this is not a rule, so one should be free to play the intimidating card, if necessary.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Butterball on May 9th, 2008, 8:56am
on 05/09/08 at 08:26:04, Darthwing Teorist wrote:
What if you have bad knees? Huh? Huh? Can you still run away or should you kill everything in sight? ;D



Lol, that's all covered in my Tactical Urban Defense Escape Scheme. (TUDES for short)

1. Walk

2. Run

3.


;D

Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Darthwing Teorist on May 9th, 2008, 9:23am

Where can I get a watch like that?


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Butterball on May 9th, 2008, 10:44am
on 05/09/08 at 09:23:02, Darthwing Teorist wrote:
Where can I get a watch like that?



I think this guy used to sell them...





;D ;D


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Royal_Dragon on May 9th, 2008, 11:09am



Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Darthwing Teorist on May 9th, 2008, 12:04pm

That is crazy!!!



We had a computer store here, called Crazy Irving. I had no idea why they used "crazy" in the name of a store until now.


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Butterball on May 9th, 2008, 1:40pm

on 05/09/08 at 12:04:27, Darthwing Teorist wrote:
That is crazy!!!




We had a computer store here, called Crazy Irving. I had no idea why they used "crazy" in the name of a store until now.


Are his prices insane?
:D


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Darthwing Teorist on May 9th, 2008, 1:47pm

I think that they were good. However, he closed down. Kuh-razy!


Title: Re: How do you train for survival?
Post by Shooter on May 31st, 2008, 3:51pm

survival is the slowest form of suicide
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby BruceP on Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:06 pm

Thanks, Tom. I have arrived :D
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby Muad'dib on Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:08 pm

OH HELL YES!!!

Bruce, do you have the clips of your practice still up somewhere? I am starting hardcore training again and was looking to implement.
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby BruceP on Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:19 pm

Sorry, Zhong_Kui. None of my old clips are available anymore. Probably for the best, too...that shit was fake.
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby iwalkthecircle on Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:21 pm

Shooter wrote:Sorry, Zhong_Kui. None of my old clips are available anymore. Probably for the best, too...that shit was fake.



sweet now i can say "after practice i got bruces all over my arms and leg."


good to see u back bruce, the tcc monster from up north.
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby Franklin on Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:48 pm

yeah i second that it is good to see you back Bruce...

would be interested in hearing about any of your new insights (seeing how you referred to your old work)


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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby BruceP on Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:21 pm

Thanks, Franklin and iwtc.

Not many new insights these days. Just working LOTS and playing at my hobbies when I get time. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/inde ... 774.0.html

A couple of dudes I explore movement with were slapfighting the other day. One of them had a shovel and the other was emptyhanded. As the first guy swung his shovel at his partner's head, the latter stepped down and in, as if he were scooping gravel. He caught the guy's lead leg behind the knee with his lead hand and as he raised back up and punched into the chest with his rear hand he said, "Just like pitchin gravel!" and sent the shovel dude flying into a jumbled pile of deadwood. It looked just like he was pitching gravel over his left shoulder. Perfect wave response and initialization.
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby TaoJoannes on Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:20 pm

Seriously, I think some people would actually just WATCH a person die.

Actually, these days they're more likely to whip out the camera phone and upload the video to Youtube.
oh qué una tela enredada que tejemos cuando primero practicamos para engañar
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby Jeice on Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:02 pm

"Fifth, head down to the pound and get yourself a decent sized dog. Kill it with your bare hands, or any of the objects you've practiced with as weapons. Get some fake id and repeat as often as possible."

I did this regularly... problem is, after a while it got kind of boring, so I started masturbating while I did it to make it more fun... and now I can't reach orgasm unless I kill a dog. Dogs are fucking expensive.
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby Bhassler on Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:44 pm

.
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby TaoJoannes on Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:55 pm

That isn't a bad idea.

When I was homeless some guy paid one of my buds a six pack of beer to piss on his windshield while he pleasured himself. After he drank the beer, guy came back and did it again.
oh qué una tela enredada que tejemos cuando primero practicamos para engañar
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby Ben on Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:37 pm

I didn't kow you were homeless. I'd like to talk to you about it sometime.
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Re: how do you train for survival?

Postby TaoJoannes on Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:48 pm

Sure, man, when I get back up to ATL you can buy me some soup or something. :P
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