Heavy Slaps and Open Palm Strikes

[JusticeZero]

Mostly all of my hand strikes are open handed, at least in part because I toughen up my palm as an incidental from posting and such, but not my knuckles. I make sure to teach them, but they don't get drilled as much as they could be. Galopante is a good demonstration of the wringing and lunging forces we use; it uses both. I tell students to do it only lightly against the bag, but the first time they get the dynamics to work, they always wrench their elbow a bit from the force overload because they weren't doing it lightly enough, and as such have a bit of an epiphany about the body mechanics involved. It's basically a turning slap set up like a boxing hook, coming from a hand that was hanging at the side; it uses coiling force from the feet up, and a body and torso lunge with a deep stance. Also has the plus of being a very easy technique to do to practice basic esquiva in pairs for new students, as it doesn't make the defender drop their body level quite as much as the outside crescent that is also a common basic drill for that particular movement.
Other than that, palm strike, wristbone chop, groin grab, two elbows, and a double eye poke that honestly is more of a symbol to show an open guard than a combat technique as i've seen. I show how to use the chop as a backfist, but I don't ever drill it really.

I'd guess MMA people punch because there aren't any arts that they respect (that is, that sportfight at their favored level of intensity) that use palms. They don't experience hogh level palm strikes as a result.

[mrtoes]

I enjoy working slaps on the bag, but I find for me they're not as instinctive as fist strikes. The only slaps I could see coming out automatically would be piquan if my opponent was quite low in front of me, also possibly bitch slap to the face, though I reckon I'd be more likely to go for a bear fist in the heat of the moment.

[neijia_boxer]

good topic Ian.

I had thought about that recently as well since we do alot of palm trainig in pakua and I recently watched a Iron body and palm breaking demonstrations video.

I had heard in the early 1990's a BJJ guy challenged a pakua guy and the paku guy did a palm strike on the top of the BJJ guys head as the lbjj guy lunged in for a take down and knocked him out.

Not sure the validity of the story but i had been thinking that would be a cool technique to use in the mma class one of these days...the throwing palm (often used in tong Bei) or the shorter slap palm (used in iron palm training) to the top on someones head. it can seriously injure someone however.

matt

[neijia_boxer]

good topic Ian.

I had thought about that recently as well since we do alot of palm trainig in pakua and I recently watched a Iron body and palm breaking demonstrations video.

I had heard in the early 1990's a BJJ guy challenged a pakua guy and the paku guy did a palm strike on the top of the BJJ guys head as the lbjj guy lunged in for a take down and got Ko'd.

Not sure the validity of the story but i had been thinking that would be a cool technique to use in the mma class one of these days...the throwing palm (often used in tong Bei) or the shorter slap palm (used in iron palm training) to the top on someones head. it can seriously injure someone however.

matt

[mrtoes]

Yes I have looked at the exposed back of the skull, neck and spine when people are shooting for me and thinking how vulnerable it is. Vertical slaps can be absolutely brutal. How you'd drill it so that you could pull it off for real, without injuring your training partner I'm not quite sure.

[Chris McKinley]

Great thread. I've used palm strikes in real situations effectively. One of the reasons I advocate them instead of punches for most situations is for a few reasons.

1) A palm strike can hit with enough power to do the job.

2) A palm strike is many times more versatile in the kinds of targets it can safely strike.

3) A palm strike does not generally provide significant risk of injury to the striking hand, regardless of target, whereas the unprotected fist is especially subject to such risk, especially if the head is the target.

4) If I need "shotgun" stopping power, I've still got elbows and knees, which hit much harder than any fist and without nearly the risk of injury.

5) Empty hand skills are just for buying time until you can present your own weapon. If you injure your hand by punching, you may not be able to present/use your own weapon to save your life or your loved ones. You may not be able to use environmental weapons of opportunity or climb fences/trees as necessary for escape.

6) If you injure your hand punching, you may not be able to access car keys/cell phone from your pocket, you may not be able to operate a vehicle safely to escape, you may not be able to correctly punch in the numbers on a phone, you may not be able to access/apply first-aid for yourself, your loves ones or your assailant as necessary, which may result in an otherwise unnecessary death.

[everything]

Yes I have looked at the exposed back of the skull, neck and spine when people are shooting for me and thinking how vulnerable it is. Vertical slaps can be absolutely brutal. How you'd drill it so that you could pull it off for real, without injuring your training partner I'm not quite sure.

put on some sturdy helmets? like that hilarious thread of the bear paw guys with the motorcycle helmets?

[Bao]

Bao i said people in the MMA world ... not the IMA world
Chris

Ah! Me stupid. Me say so very sorry.

[Haoran]

Ok, here's the viewpoint of my Bagua teacher and Neigong teacher.

Training in both of these arts over time causes qi and blood to be brought to the palms and as a result the palm thickens (粗) making it more of a weapon. My bagua teacher also trains daily by slapping trees.. So, yes, very valid use.

Oh, one other thing, my bagua teacher told me if he used his palm to slap my palm I would get seriously hurt. He was very serious and even after I tried to get him to do it several times he still refused.

[Chris McKinley]

Haoran,

That's nice that you posted your teacher's viewpoints on palm strikes, but what are your opinions and experiences with them? Do you have any experiences of your own which validate their use, or are you judging solely on the fact that your teacher trains them daily by slapping trees? How long have you been training in Baguazhang currently? If you are still very new to training, it's perfectly acceptable to say "I don't personally know, I'm too new, but my teacher says...[etc.]". However, as you progress, and as you spend more time in training, this reliance on what your teacher says must be replaced as soon as possible with your own opinions/experiences. That's the only way you can truly own what you are learning/training.

[Haoran]

Well ok Chris ... Excuse the Fck out of me ha ha....

No, I train by myself these days and mostly for health from a TCM viewpoint at this point. So, no, other than direct contact with my teacher (who is in Shanghai and I'm in Florida), I have little experience using palm strikes (of course you can't count me attacking my cat with a palm strike, can you?? )

[taoistfist]

yeah i love to use the slap. as a bitch slap and bear slap. the bear slap is great totally unbalnce your opponent or ko in the head good stuff. i also use it when people are shooting in as in the clip at 23sec.-30 sec. hitting the back of the head and the kidneys.

we also train it for use in the monkey techniques alot and in some of the splashing hands stuff. if you have iron hand going on it is even better come to think of it i use the slap and open palm strike all the time. it is in so many of the hsing i animal stuff.
love it!!
lando

[Chris Fleming]

An excellent technique. Probably not used as much in MMA due to all of the boxing training that people do, not to mention that most aren't practitioners of CMA within their MMA.

But it does happen sometimes.

[Bao]

Ok, some more random thoughts:

It's more easy to keep the arm relaxed with an open hand.

A palm slap is very different from a palm strike. I like slapping techniques using the whole arm to swing with, using the waist and legs. The arm is just empty, perfectly relaxed.

Wide arm swinging palm strikes is good for setting up straight punches.

In CMA tradition, palm slapping has connection with iron palm training.

- end of randomness -

[bigphatwong]

Oh, definitely. The Limalama I was taught is chock-full of them...rapid-fire slaps, whiphands, slap checks, " ox jaw" strikes with the hard bone of the wrist, piano finger rakes across the eyes, etc. Some people look down on it as kind of a girly way of fighting, but they can really sting if applied with the proper torque. I'm told that Tiny used to always say that he'd rather be punched than slapped by someone who knew what they were doing. After being iron palm slapped enough times by my Sifu, I'm inclined to agree.