Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Koah on Fri May 08, 2009 2:12 am

lazyboxer wrote:AFAIK, all the various methods of zhanzhuang emphasize the importance of first stilling the mind, or finding what's sometimes called "quiescence" in medical texts (anjing, 安靜). It's not a competitive endurance test, and there's no fixed time limit. Here's a short essay on it:
http://www.shen-nong.com/eng/tcm/quiet.html

Unfortunately this point is often overlooked by many martial teachers, who may see it more as an adjunct to "dong gong" - movement work. It's a type of meditation, requiring an ability to 'let go' (of the wish to control).

Above all, remember that anything that can heal and strengthen can also damage and weaken.


Well said and nicely informative. Thank you (Weather I knew it or not) I will have to take make some time to closely read the article a little later. May even post back about it.

Are there not different ways to approach of zhanzhuang type practices other than internal?
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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Daniel on Fri May 08, 2009 4:36 am

lazyboxer wrote:AFAIK, all the various methods of zhanzhuang emphasize the importance of first stilling the mind, or finding what's sometimes called "quiescence" in medical texts (anjing, 安靜). It's not a competitive endurance test, and there's no fixed time limit. Here's a short essay on it:
http://www.shen-nong.com/eng/tcm/quiet.html

Unfortunately this point is often overlooked by many martial teachers, who may see it more as an adjunct to "dong gong" - movement work. It's a type of meditation, requiring an ability to 'let go' (of the wish to control).

Above all, remember that anything that can heal and strengthen can also damage and weaken.


+1


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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby shawnsegler on Fri May 08, 2009 4:38 am

Hmmmm....this thread is interesting. I used to stand a lot but sort of let it go when I started doing bagua all the time. If I do it now I'll hug the tree for like 20 minutes or I'll hold single postures from my paochui form or my old taiji form for like 10 min or so at a time. I miss the benefits of standing for like 40 min to an hour that I used to do, but can't seem to get back to it.

I find what I do to be efficacious, but it's mostly done based on whatever my bodies feeling like on a particular day. If I fine mysel to be stiff in some posture when I'm working out I basically hold that posture until I feel like I'm all open in that posture.

I've also been slowing my form way down and the more I do that it seems like the less I stand....Don't know if it's a postitive trade off or not, but it's how my practice has developed. Now that I'm able really feel a whole body connection on command, the main portion of my practice has been simply to hold on to that through all my movements.

Anyhoo...interesting topic.

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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Daniel on Fri May 08, 2009 2:18 pm

A piece of advice I got on the way might be useful for others:

"If your body feels wooden when you do your standing, you have been standing too long."

I also have noticed over the years the huge difference in doing soft standing practices versus the usual "wooden post" ones. The soft standing makes you more alive, more able to change, and more able to use it for real combat. It is also a lot shorter than what people usually stand, which means that many don´t want to do it as it doesn´t feed their egos like forced standing does.

Anyway. My experience.



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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby jjy5016 on Sat May 09, 2009 4:22 am

Ok now I have to say something

"AFAIK, all the various methods of zhanzhuang emphasize the importance of first stilling the mind, or finding what's sometimes called "quiescence" in medical texts "

and

""If your body feels wooden when you do your standing, you have been standing too long."

I also have noticed over the years the huge difference in doing soft standing practices versus the usual "wooden post" ones. The soft standing makes you more alive, more able to change, and more able to use it for real combat. It is also a lot shorter than what people usually stand, which means that many don´t want to do it as it doesn´t feed their egos like forced standing does."


These two statements are two of the most misinformed and misleading entries that I've ever read on the practice of zhan zhuang. Zhan zhuang is NOT standing meditation. One might seek to enter a meditative state while standing but that most definitely is not emphasized in all standing practices. That is meditation and can be achieved while sitting on one's ass on the floor or in a chair or lying on a sofa. The ony standing I ever learned that requires a stilling of the mind and freeing it from all thoughts is wuji standing. I'm not talking about the wuji posture from "Warriors of Stillness" but any posture that is free from thought. Normally this is practiced by one who has already done other types of standing and has achieved some very specific results from them.

Other than just wanting to meditate standing the practice of zhan zhuang has much too much going on to simply say that one is seeking to find "quiescence". There are many different types. Some are for developing physical power. Some methods actually teach one how to issue power. Others do things that affect the mind which in turn cause things to happen within the body. The majority of what I've come across definitely have the mind being anything but quiet. Too much to concentrate on to just be quiet.

Standing in a specific posture relaxed will allow one able to change more readily but so is just standing in any posture at all or even sitting for that matter. So why bother standing? Is there something magical or mystical about standing in a posture relaxed as opposed to just standing as one would waiting for a bus? Why bother? What is it going to do for you?

Standing for long durations has nothing to do with ego. It is gong fu, or getting something for the time that one puts into the practice. That someone would write such a statement about standing leaves me at a loss.

More and more misinformation is put out about the practice of zhan zhuang. Maybe they were right to keep it behind closed doors for so long. Lately it seems any loon who wants to sell a practice to martial artists puts it in a standing posture and labels it zhan zhuang. Un-fucking-believable.
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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Daniel on Sat May 09, 2009 4:35 am

jjy5016 wrote:Standing for long durations has nothing to do with ego. It is gong fu, or getting something for the time that one puts into the practice. That someone would write such a statement about standing leaves me at a loss.

More and more misinformation is put out about the practice of zhan zhuang. Maybe they were right to keep it behind closed doors for so long. Lately it seems any loon who wants to sell a practice to martial artists puts it in a standing posture and labels it zhan zhuang. Un-fucking-believable.


Hello jjy. Over the past twenty years I have seen many MA people who really do push their standing long times mostly for ego´s sake. If you stand longer than you can stand reasonably comfortably, this might not be good for your health or your practice in the long run, hence building it up slowly is a better way to do it, and soft standing is practiced in versions of Dachengquan too, in at least one lineage I know of. I wrote this statement with 20 years of experience, and stand by it. It doesn´t mean that anybody has to listen, but I have seen especially westerners who do wooden standing, and have been taught specifically by chinese teachers that this is a classic flaw you want to avoid. It can also, like Lazyboxer quite correctly points out, lead to health-issues if you do prolonged periods of forced standing way past your current level.

You are quite right that "standing meditation" is a misnomer. Standing isn´t supposed to create the same states and work that you do in sitting practices. However - edited comment - you do need to create a relaxed mind before you start working with other things, or you will create tense patterns in your CNS which in turn will affect your entire practice.

Since you say that so many are mistaken about this - including, I presume from your post, I, and Lazyboxer who has much more experience than I do - could you please advice on a text and teacher who does "the real thing"?

It would also be curteous if you put up a bio of your background with your answer, so that we can see from which experience and/or lineages you have your knowledge, especially since you are so outspoken in your opinion.

Thanks



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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby jjy5016 on Sat May 09, 2009 12:19 pm

Well Daniel I've never met anyone who practiced extended standing for ego's sake. It seems kind of moronic to stand for an extended period for ego's sake. The standing I do and teach gives more benefits the longer one stands. As long as it is done correctly.

As for my credentials, well I was the last bai shi student of Y.P. Dong a third generation yiquan master who was a disciple of Zhang Chang Xin, a famous figher/master and student of yiquan's founder. He is now retired from teaching.

I was a disciple of Lau Xing who was Han Xing Yuan's only private student and also a student of his brother Han Xing Qiao, also direct students of yiquan's founder. Unfortunately Lau sifu died suddenly last summer.

I've verified the methods and also study with a student of Kuo Lien Ying, another student of yiquan's founder so I have experience from three different third generation yiquan teachers.

I've heard people talk about not standing with knees passed the toes, not standing for over an hour, not standing low and say that either they never learned the proper mechanics of standing or learned their standing from self proclaimed masters or books and videos. All of my classmates were taught to stand for periods of at least an hour, low with knees passed their toes and much more detail to the postures than just standing there relaxed. My own students stand for an hour almost immediately, low and with knees passed toes. Some of them are women in their late 40s. One of them is even a two time Shukokai karate world champion in fighting. None of them have any pain from what I've showed them which is exactly how my teacher taught me.

My classmates, students and myself all go through the same experiences with our zhan zhuang. It's a very difficult exercise which produces intense heat within the body. Everyone that does it sweats like crazy at first. Then at some point something happens within the body and the sweating stops and one just starts getting stronger and stronger. Later there are more relaxed methods that are more yi intensive and less physical.

The highest level of standing in our system is when we do the quite mind standing. That's only because one has come to the point where he no longer needs to concentrate on certain things to get results in the body. Just what exactly is simple relaxed standing in quiescence supposed to give one as far as results are concerned? What results have twenty years of doing it have you got.

My standing has given me great connection and power. I've gotten many compliments from different "masters" and students of other schools on the power I can generate without being stiff or "wooden". At 5'4" 155 pounds I can easily lift others off the ground who outweigh me by 50 - 80 pounds with a slight movement. Has relaxed standing given you this type of power? And while I'm at it who did you learn from?
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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Daniel on Sat May 09, 2009 12:47 pm

Thank you for giving such an open reply, jjy.

You have a good lineage. That´s always a blessing. Few practitioners find that in whatever field they pick.

You can easily check most of my background in my bio here on EF. I have studied standing practices with students of Kenichi Sawai as well as other standing traditions, including older daoist versions predating Dachengquan and Xingyi, including doing cross-research into the original shamanic standing practices in other parts of the world. You can also check my websites at www.levandestillhet.se or www.livingstillness.se. The swedish one has 700 pages of info written straight for the Web. In the Published Articles section on either is an interview with Lam Kam Chuen that might interest you if you do Yiquan.

I am glad that you have good experiences with the standing you do from Yiquan. I used to do similar practices a lot, and still do in Xingyi. I have, however, since been trained in another system from my chinese teacher, which focuses more on change for real combat, and hence has a different view on training once you have done basic standing work to get your system to a certain level of connection and root.

I still stand by my opinion about not forcing standing. I have taught full time for the past ten years, to people who are both practicing only for health and to people with professional interest in using the material. I think it´s also important to look at how standing is taught to westerners rather than chinese, as the body-types and energy-systems between the both are very different. I know several people I have met over the years who have done forced standing and have gotten systems filled with internal tension and "dead stillness", and others who have done too much without softening their bodies first and ended up with issues of severe tension around lungs and heart and to and from the brain that really wasn´t good for their health. It´s all a matter of how you tailor the material. But you are right in that many in the West now teach "standing" without knowing what goes into it. The amount of standing will also vary depending on if you are a martial artist, a security professional, or Joe Smith who needs better health for his job at the office.

But these are my views from working full time with teaching it, tailoring it, and working with it in other circumstances, and I will be happy to disagree as long as we discuss it in constructive tones. Thank you for detailing your background, that was polite. :)

Lazyboxer´s comment is important. A student needs to acquire a certain amount of relaxed mind and body in the standing before starting to work detailed parts of the internal form in the training, otherwise their nervous system will be programmed with tension that really isn´t helping. Even more so if they are training purely for health, and live here in the West.

Best of luck with your training



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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby jjy5016 on Sat May 09, 2009 1:20 pm

Well you certainly are diversified Daniel.

I haven't been very impressed by Lam's books. It seems that he teaches zhan zhuang slightly different than his teacher Yu Yong Nian. That is if his books give an accurate description of how he teaches. I can say this because I know someone who studies with master Yu and also studied with my own teacher briefly and says that the methods are the same.

Good luck to you too.
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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Daniel on Sat May 09, 2009 2:43 pm

jjy5016 wrote:Well you certainly are diversified Daniel.


Well, twenty years of practice, research, interviews, and writing about a subject gives quite a lot of depth into it. But there are people here on RSF who know much more than I do.

And just to be clear, I am not a student of Lam´s: I merely interviewed him for a magazine as part of my research.



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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Areios on Sat May 09, 2009 2:55 pm

jjy5016 wrote:Well Daniel I've never met anyone who practiced extended standing for ego's sake. It seems kind of moronic to stand for an extended period for ego's sake.

I don't know where are you from but I want to live there... no ego standing... that would be great.
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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Fubo on Sat May 09, 2009 3:38 pm

Daniel wrote: I think it´s also important to look at how standing is taught to westerners rather than chinese, as the body-types and energy-systems between the both are very different.


Please explain. Being half Chinese and half western I'm interested to hear your rational for this statement... especially about the different "energy-systems".
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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Haoran on Sat May 09, 2009 3:54 pm

Having lived in China, married a Chinese, and been around Chinese culture for most of my adult life, the only things different about the two that I can think of are the acceptance of certain concepts (qi) and diet. Most Chinese are very careful about what they eat. They think about what the food in a different way than the West (is it hot, cold, bitter, pungent, etc). Will this food stimulate the spleenic function, is it good for the stomach, etc. Where as most westerners will think about it in terms of calories or fat. Will this make me fat? Or, I can eat this today if I diet tomorrow, etc. Another thing which comes to mind in Chinese thought is doing something over time, day after day to achieve a result. Such as in Diet. Eating Zhou (Congee) every morning, thinking about how much to eat, etc. So, while the poster said body energy systems are totally different, I believe the source would be diet and cultural background.

I've tried to teach standing or introduce Zhou for breakfast to people in the states and they look at me like I'm crazy. So, what can you do? I just finished two 45 minute standing sessions of Wuji and I'm getting ready to make some Zhou for tomorrow's breakfast.

The saying of casting Pearls before the Swine, Yuan Fen 缘分, and WuXing 悟性 come to mind.
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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby Fubo on Sat May 09, 2009 4:26 pm

Haoran,

As a half/half person that grew up in Hong Kong, Beijing and Guangzhou, and having spent a fair amount of years living in the west, I can certainly understand the differences in diet and cultural you talk about. When I hear different "energy systems" being talked about in the context of ZZ, it's left very subjective as to what "energy systems" refer to, hence the question.

I do like my Zhou!
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Re: Zhan Zhuang - How Long?

Postby bigphatwong on Sat May 09, 2009 5:03 pm

Haoran wrote:Having lived in China, married a Chinese, and been around Chinese culture for most of my adult life, the only things different about the two that I can think of are the acceptance of certain concepts (qi) and diet. Most Chinese are very careful about what they eat. They think about what the food in a different way than the West (is it hot, cold, bitter, pungent, etc). Will this food stimulate the spleenic function, is it good for the stomach, etc. Where as most westerners will think about it in terms of calories or fat. Will this make me fat? Or, I can eat this today if I diet tomorrow, etc. Another thing which comes to mind in Chinese thought is doing something over time, day after day to achieve a result. Such as in Diet. Eating Zhou (Congee) every morning, thinking about how much to eat, etc. So, while the poster said body energy systems are totally different, I believe the source would be diet and cultural background.

I've tried to teach standing or introduce Zhou for breakfast to people in the states and they look at me like I'm crazy. So, what can you do? I just finished two 45 minute standing sessions of Wuji and I'm getting ready to make some Zhou for tomorrow's breakfast.

The saying of casting Pearls before the Swine, Yuan Fen 缘分, and WuXing 悟性 come to mind.


Brother, after reading that last bit all I can say is, I feel your pain! The diet/lifestyle thing is an endless point of contention between my GF and I (she is very locked into the Western mode of doing these things-- it's gotten to the point where I just keep them to myself).

That said, the zhan zhuang I practice is very much about clearing the mind and attaining wu ji first. Otherwise it's like burdening a horse that won't stand still.
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