Training in isolation...thoughts on sparring....

[Andy_S]

D_Glenn:

Given that:
- We live in the Internet age; and (much more importantly for EF)
- There are few (any?) vids of "real" IMA peeps fighting using IMA in either the street OR the ring:

I strongly suggest/respectfully request you film your next street encounter(s).

There are many here (me, for one) who would be most interested to see IMA operating in its preferred environemnt (ie 'da streetz') rather than the unrealistic/overly-refereed/overly genteel, etc, etc confines of a sport fighting arena, a school sparring situation, etc.

I am assuming that as it is all good healthy fun between bar-hopping chaps who are past the age of consent, there are no legal issues involved in making such footage available, any more than there is of the Union Street fights in NYC that some of the Taoist's lads have taken part in....

Gents:

The Holy Grail is within our grasp...

[D_Glenn]

Andy S.,

No offense but you are an idiot.

If I were you I would delete that post.

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[Andy_S]

D_Glenn:

Much obliged for your kind advice, but I'll leave the post where it is and await a reasoned response from your good self as to why it is
(1) idiotic; and
(2) why it should be deleted.

After all, film of a few "white middle class guys" having a bit of fun after a few beers in a downtown bar district is pretty common YouTube fodder these days, but seeing you and your pals (regularly) demonstrating your IMA skills in this setting would be, I am sure, most instructive for us all.

No offense, hmmm?

[zenshiite]

You have to wonder if sparring wasn't so much of an issue in an era when the arts we are talking about were being used on a daily basis for real defense of life and limb or the village, family, country etc. Who needs to play fight when you've got bandits storming the village? You find out of your shit is real or fake, or if you're real or fake pretty quick in a situation where pops teaches you some shit to keep the bandits at bay because they really are going to be coming your way tomorrow or whatever. There are times when development of martial arts exploded because they had immediate usage and so there wasn't so much of a concern of "now you have to learn how to fight with these principles because you aren't going to have to do this on a regular basis and you just want to have this experience just in case you do need it."

[D_Glenn]

Andy, you're either trolling or you are that clueless?

I don't know what fantasy world you live in but here despite how getting in a fight doesn't feel criminal it is none the less a crime, granted it's only a misdemeanor assault and battery and about a $200 fine but it does go on your permanent record and you're required to put that on all job applications. In the case of 2 guys fighting they charge both with the same crime and if one of them is stupid enough to plead guilty and pay his fine the next morning then it's not too hard for the other guy to get the charges dropped or at least get a deferred sentence. Here though the District Attorney can choose to prosecute a crime even if a victim doesn't come forward, so filming oneself committing a crime is like legal suicide not to mention at that point the D.A. will probably take it way beyond a misdemeanor. Your post is offensive as it's obvious trolling, not funny, and really does make you look like an idiot.
For the 2nd time now you have completely lost all "Street Cred" with me.

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[Chris McKinley]

D_Glenn,

I'm trying to be very careful not to come across as trolling or judgmental in asking my questions. However, racial and ethnic issues aside, I'm still curious about your motivations for continuing to engage in these kinds of sought after fights. Are you still lacking a certain degree of confidence in your skill with using your material for real engagements? Is this something that is done as a group peer pressure thing at your school? Again, do you allow those not interested in fighting with you to decline? Are your fights predatory or purely by uncoerced consent?

[D_Glenn]

RE "I'm still curious about your motivations for continuing to engage in these kinds of sought after fights." No real motivation it's just how it is in our city.

RE "Are you still lacking a certain degree of confidence in your skill with using your material for real engagements?" What is a "real engagement". I guess my confidence level is that of fighting people my own size at this point, much larger and I have no problem with running away.

RE "Is this something that is done as a group peer pressure thing at your school?" I don't belong to a school.

RE "Again, do you allow those not interested in fighting with you to decline?" As I said above it's more of letting ourselves be drawn into something that's already going to happen.

RE "Are your fights predatory?" No. I didn't mean to come off as some sort of thug and I'm far from it. I guess it's just how we grew up or maybe the lack of oxygen up here in the mile-high city. But seriously this is so mellow compared to other places. I know a guy who went to the San Soo school out in Cali and if you want to hear about predatory thug-like assaults, talk to those guys.


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[Andy_S]

D-Glenn:

RE: My offensiveness, trolling, cluelessness, fantasy world, idiocy, (did I cover them all?) etc, etc:

Easy, tiger. Plenty of people film street rucks without apparent legal repercussions. To wit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_gtXiit_vg

Given your previous post, if you wish to continue your, er, IMA R&D in the bars and back alleys of your fair town, you are obviously running a significant legal risk - regardless of whether a camera is present or not. Given this factor, dare I suggest a move to a more macho jurisdiction, such as NYC, where chaps engaging in genteel fisticuffs on da streetz is socially and (apparently legally) acceptable?

Meanwhile, I am gutted, yes gutted, about my loss of "street cred." I pray that it can one day be restored. Sigh.

[D_Glenn]

Yeah ok. Packing my bags right now to move to NYC.


Actually my fellow Chap err Bloke, would you fancy to take this good natured ribbing (nudge nudge wink wink) to PM's? I don't quite see what your getting towards at this point, some agenda or personal grudge possibly? Maybe in the past I somehow stepped on your toes but for the life of me I don't recollect that.

Do explain.

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[D_Glenn]

Plenty of people film street rucks without apparent legal repercussions. To wit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_gtXiit_vg

.

I just watched your clip. That is hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.


.

[bailewen]

You have to wonder if sparring wasn't so much of an issue in an era when the arts we are talking about were being used on a daily basis for real defense of life and limb or the village, family, country etc. Who needs to play fight when you've got bandits storming the village? You find out of your shit is real or fake, or if you're real or fake pretty quick in a situation where pops teaches you some shit to keep the bandits at bay because they really are going to be coming your way tomorrow or whatever. There are times when development of martial arts exploded because they had immediate usage and so there wasn't so much of a concern of "now you have to learn how to fight with these principles because you aren't going to have to do this on a regular basis and you just want to have this experience just in case you do need it."

This is what I meant earlier by "old school". Graham was right to question my use of the term but I figure I could explain a little bit.

China has had war within it's domestic borders for most of the 20th century. There was the Republican Revolution in 1911 which came on the heels of the opium war in the late 1800's. Then there were the boxer rebellions all around that time. By the time the dust from all that had just barely cleared, the Japanese invaded. This bled into WWII and once that was settled then came the communist revolution. Then there was a brief rest (from war anyways) in the 50's but there was massive starvation. Late 60's early 70's: Cultural revolution.

So I'm stepping into a lineage where Shifu (67 years old) was in his late 20's during the height of the cultural revolution. He was also a short skinny Han kid living in a Hui neighborhood. That's almost like being a skinny white kid in south central LA. LOT's of violence in that period when he was "fighting age" (who here does not admit that 20-30 is when you get into the most fights?) HIS Shifu was Zhang Xiangwu, vice dean of the Nanjing Academy and a mid level army general before that so like...he had street cred both with the competition stuff and not in "the street" but on the actual battlefield. So like, that's what I mean by "old school".

[Andy_S]

D_Glenn:

Nothing personal, and no, I am not returning fire for any past slight. Frankly, I just thought your practice of testing your MA skills by getting involved in rucks outside bars rather extraordinary. It was not me who was levelling charges of trolling, idiocy and all the rest, but I'll leave it there.

FYI, your practice method is not unique:
According to a Dennis Martin article from Fighting Arts International, in the 1970s, certain Japanese Karate Association student-instructors, after finishing evening class at the Honbu Dojo, would head out for some "real kumite" in Tokyo's dodgier districts. However, they were not indulging in consensual fisticuffs with salarymen, they were challenging yakuza bouncers: One chap apparently lost the sole of his shoe when kicking against a short sword slash, which might have put him off such after-hours entertainment.

But to each his own.

[D_Glenn]

"I just thought your practice of testing your MA skills by getting involved in rucks outside bars rather extraordinary."

I don't see anything extraordinary at all. I go out with some friends, none of whom do martial arts as they it's stupid, we get in fights, I had no natural fighting ability so if it wasn't for doing bagua I'd always be on the losing end. The thing that I find strange in your posts is that we'll say hypothetically I did make a video of us fighting only there would be no real discernable difference between me doing bagua and my friends just simply fighting. Fighting is fighting. Do you honestly think it's going to look like something different?

When you yourself are fighting could a passerby walk by and say "whoa that guys fighting with tai chi!"?

***
On it not being uncommon or unique I agree, in my post above I mentioned the more recent 'san soo' school who are notorious for it. Look it up. I believe its also the school where Tim Cartmell started his MA career.


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[Andy_S]

Who knows?

But I would say - as a general rule...there is a great vid of a large mama hurling around a skinny kid who is trying to box, and she looks uncommonly skilled, but I suspect is not - that those trained to fight and those not trained to fight do, indeed, look different even to a layman's eyes.

Enough. I'll let Omar reclaim his thread.

[zenshiite]

You have to wonder if sparring wasn't so much of an issue in an era when the arts we are talking about were being used on a daily basis for real defense of life and limb or the village, family, country etc. Who needs to play fight when you've got bandits storming the village? You find out of your shit is real or fake, or if you're real or fake pretty quick in a situation where pops teaches you some shit to keep the bandits at bay because they really are going to be coming your way tomorrow or whatever. There are times when development of martial arts exploded because they had immediate usage and so there wasn't so much of a concern of "now you have to learn how to fight with these principles because you aren't going to have to do this on a regular basis and you just want to have this experience just in case you do need it."

This is what I meant earlier by "old school". Graham was right to question my use of the term but I figure I could explain a little bit.

China has had war within it's domestic borders for most of the 20th century. There was the Republican Revolution in 1911 which came on the heels of the opium war in the late 1800's. Then there were the boxer rebellions all around that time. By the time the dust from all that had just barely cleared, the Japanese invaded. This bled into WWII and once that was settled then came the communist revolution. Then there was a brief rest (from war anyways) in the 50's but there was massive starvation. Late 60's early 70's: Cultural revolution.

So I'm stepping into a lineage where Shifu (67 years old) was in his late 20's during the height of the cultural revolution. He was also a short skinny Han kid living in a Hui neighborhood. That's almost like being a skinny white kid in south central LA. LOT's of violence in that period when he was "fighting age" (who here does not admit that 20-30 is when you get into the most fights?) HIS Shifu was Zhang Xiangwu, vice dean of the Nanjing Academy and a mid level army general before that so like...he had street cred both with the competition stuff and not in "the street" but on the actual battlefield. So like, that's what I mean by "old school".

You know, another thing that's kind of funny to think about is the obsession with wu de and not looking for fights in order to control martial arts students. Back in the day, most martial arts masters and students were just thugs. Always brawling, sometimes for no reason. They had their own code of honor, wu de, but I don't think it's quite what we'd drill into people nowadays. How do we think these guys in the history of our lineages got so damned good? If it's mostly Shaolin monks we can chalk it up to being able to train 14 hours a day and having to fend off bandits from the temple. Same with the smaller villages like Chen village. But when you get into Beijing... some of these cats were just out looking for fights, trying to prove themselves. They were either getting jobs as bodyguards, being bandits or clandestine rebels, or just getting in street fights. Which brings to mind the question of what is the problem with what D Glenn is saying he's doing... getting pulled into fights to test his ability? It's illegal? Doesn't really matter what era it's been, it's always been illegal. Even in China's rough periods. In fact, the consequences for public brawling and drunken brawling were probably greater than they are now. Now we'd have to pay a fine, spend a couple days in the clink. In earlier times it might've included a caning, a fine, and a criminal tattoo on your face. Possibliy exile to a far off province.