Training in isolation...thoughts on sparring....

[Walk the Torque]

Some interesting points here.........

The "to spar or not spar" dichotomy never really raised its head when I first started learning IMA. What wasimportant (like Allen sed) was that what ever you did had to be done a certain way; so that maintaining sunken Chi and still mind and all that jazz was paramount. We where given some step by step "ritualized" exercises (that gradually increased in intensity) that gave focus to operating from a particular mind set. In the three main schools I practiced with, this was the go. If you didn't keep your mental S%*t together, you started breathing wrong and lacked effectiveness in pretty much all aspects of your game.

The progression of working with partners went something like:

1) Test your postures in a controlled manner
2) Test your postures in Pushing hands in a controlled manner
3) Test your applications in a controlled manner (one step stuff)
4) Work on free pushing hands
5) work on structured Ta Lu in a controlled manner (introducing moving step)
6) Work on free Ta Lu
7) Work on structured San Shou (ever increasing intensity of attacks) bringing together all previously learnt skills from the levels above.
8) Free Spar

Each stage built on the last and required the mind set to be tested to a great degree as we went up the scale.

I think the to spar or not spar question is analogous to practicing spiritual endeavors in a temple as a monk or as a lay person amongst "average folk". Neither is right or wrong, but the latter will test you in a very concrete and down to earth way. You know....."in the world, but not of it"


When I hit Bagua hard, I had this back ground to build on; so the transition was I believe, easier to work with.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
There is one 4th one though which is that ultimately, he hopes to take his students "beyond" the fightiness of it all. He has deeply held spiritual beliefs which suggest that at the end of the day, there are more important things than fighting.
SNIP

Very fair comment, and if I were only interested in rucking, (1) I would not have bothered with CMA; and (2) I would have quit MA 10 years ago. Now, at 43, I appreciate CMA's broader curriculum.

However...

RE: Qiphlow and DGlenn's comments:
The fact is, unless you mix it up with those outside your school and system, you will never really know - in your "mind's eye" or whatever - that you can do it or not. Shenfa is one thing, fighting is another. Plenty of people can fight without shenfa. Lot's of people with shenfa can't fight.

I have boxed, kickboxed and dabbled in BJJ. That has given me a much more realistic understanding of my capabilites than simply training CMA and hoping for the best.

[bailewen]

Actually Upyu and Bodywork's posts over the past year have helped me really put this stuff into perspective a bit as well. I am still trying to deal with a certain need to prove myself in certain arenas but I see people like those guys who, I believe, are quite deep into MMA and have PLENTY of real world testing grounds and for that matter, others I know who are not online, who not only make the same observation you just made about shenfa vs. fighting, but also fully respect and even recommend studying with, folks who maybe have the real shenfa or the particular skills but are not necessarily "fighters".

I had the honor last year to do a but of training with a very highly ranked Kyokshin expert. Not under but with. He was extremely interested in learning whatever he could of what I had taken back from China. Same thing with other "fighters" I have known. It seems like my lack of a ring or LEO record only matters online. When I meet with people in person we cross hands in a friendly way and they make a direct estimation of my skill. In fact, I never even really considered getting in the ring much untill the internet exploded. That's a personal failing of mine I suppose....not the lack of ring experience but the way I have allowed this sort of thing to affect my views. I was never afraid of competition. I tried a little full contact back when I was in TKD as a matter of fact. I was dissappointed with the way my first bout was scored and kind of lost interest. The best hits from both me AND the guy I fought were ruled penalties. I fought a guy who kept entering with a rear leg roundhouse and then a blitz of punches so I countered his round one time with a spinning back kick. I landed it squarely and the judges stopped us calling a foul. They said I hit him below the belt. Then later he caught me with a right hook that left me seeing stars. They called a foul on him for "excessive contact" (was supposed to be controlled on head shots.) After that I just never really thought about it much more because I felt like I had better contact at my school actually. (And this was TKD. But Juan can now attest to the occasional fighty nature of that much maligned art)

Anyways, even if it is "just" internet babble, I can't refute the logic but then....here I am training in a way that doesn't completely make sense to me. I enjoy it and like the progress I am making but the methodology...what can I say, I like sparring and kind of miss it.

[bailewen]

Oh and yeah, btw:

I have boxed, kickboxed and dabbled in BJJ. That has given me a much more realistic understanding of my capabilites than simply training CMA and hoping for the best.

Me too. I haven't boxed but I dabbled in Muay Thai, spent a few months at a kickboxing gym once, took a tiny bit of Sambo at one point, took Judo in college. It's not like I haven't trained at least a little bit in many of those sorts of things. Just never found a home there.

[Chris McKinley]

Apart from any sort of debate over shen fa vs. fighting ability, their are certain attributes that you simply cannot develop on your own, no matter how good your shen fa/structure/internal movement, etc. ever become. Timing, distancing, the ability to adjust fighting skill from a diminished state, perceptual speed, unfocused vision under duress, the ability to pick up movement cues in the other person's structure, and the ability to discern if he's got a weapon are all ones that come to mind immediately. These skills simply do not have an analog in any kind of solo practice. No one who practices exclusively solo will ever be particularly functional with these skills no matter how good they supposedly are at their martial art.

[bailewen]

Who said anything about solo practice?

I am training with Shifu at least a couple times a week. I just don't have much in the way of classmates. I do the Taiji form with everyone together which takes and hour to an hour and a half. Then I practice Baji solo for about an hour. Then I have my one on one time with Shifu.

So I'm not talking about solo practice really. In fact, that was a point I tried to make in my initial post.

Me: Shifu, isn't locking yourself in an ivory tower and training all alone a bad thing?

Shifu: What do you mean alone in an ivory tower? How can you call it "training alone" when you are training together with me!?!

[D_Glenn]

RE: Qiphlow and DGlenn's comments:
The fact is, unless you mix it up with those outside your school and system, you will never really know - in your "mind's eye" or whatever - that you can do it or not. Shenfa is one thing, fighting is another. Plenty of people can fight without shenfa. Lot's of people with shenfa can't fight.

I can only speak for myself, but no place in my post did I say one doesn't have to fight to be able to fight. Personally I don't really spar instead we just go out and pick fights. I think fighting and sometimes losing and sometimes winning is the best way to get better at it.

.

[Chris McKinley]

Omar,

Okay, sorry I missed that. Good that you have the interaction.


D_Glenn,

RE: "Personally I don't really spar instead we just go out and pick fights.". Assuming you aren't joking here or being facetious, I can't recommend against that practice strongly enough. These days, there are too many guys who don't play by the gentleman's code of taking it outside for a fair fight. Picking a fight with the wrong guy could be suicide. Some guys will bring their buddies into play and give you a gang beatdown. Lots of guys carry various forms of weapons, and the ethical inhibitions for using them has eroded in our society. Some guys are sociologically predatory and are themselves looking for prey. Still others may be current or former military or law enforcement, and may not be interested in a 'friendly' fight.

There are ways to ramp up the intensity without resorting to random real assault encounters. I'm not flat telling you what to do, but seriously, man, that is a very dangerous practice.

[D_Glenn]

Denver has always been a pretty good place to find a fair fight and yes we do work in groups and that's always an interesting dynamic where both sides size each other up and everyone's naturally evenly matched- our big guys take on their big guys and so on. But times are definitely changing, you have so many in the young generation who either abhor fighting or they have no problem with fighting unfairly, both I attribute to too much estrogen (birth control pills) in public drinking water. The days of the good fair fight are dissapearing fast. I was hoping these forums might pan out- I'm 5'10" and look like I weigh about 170lbs but thanks to doing IMA and zhan zhuang I'm actually 205lbs, this summer possibly, anyone?

[Chris McKinley]

D_Glenn,

I'm curious as to how you operate under these circumstances. When going out picking fights, whom do you target and why? Are you straightforward in mentioning your intention simply to pick a fight, or do you draw people into confrontation obliquely? Do you allow people to politely decline your invitation to fight or do you press them into it? What is your motivation for doing it? Has that motivation changed with your collected experiences?

[D_Glenn]

Here there's about 50 different bars all within a 6 block radius and there's almost always someone looking for a fight, I should re-phrase it, it's not actually 'picking' a fight but letting ourselves get drawn into one. Sticking to our same culture of middle-class white male is the real priority.

[Chris McKinley]

Okay. Why is that a priority for you?

[JusticeZero]

Because a duel between equals is a restrained recreation; if a difference of social strata is added to the mixture, it becomes punishment or vengeance.

[GrahamB]

I'm confused by the general assumption that not sparring is 'old school' way of training. Is that a safe assumption to make? I'm not sure it is.

[bailewen]

It's not and that's why I usually put it in quotes. (looks like I forgot this time)

I'm between classes at the moment but when I have time later I could explain why I think of it as "old school" mentality. That's a whole 'nother topic though.