recommended MA podcast

[bailewen]

http://usaikido.com/?feed=rss2

I stumbled onto this Aikido podcast the other day and have been really enjoying it. I think many of the interviews are extremely pertinent to what we do and to many of the questions we wrestle with. They range the gamut from "Angry White Pajamas" types to more "airy fairy" stuff but they are all really interesting.

There is some mention of Upyu's teacher in there by one of the guys as a reference to one of the places where you can find "real budo" being revived and apparently George Ledyard is a big systema fan as he talks about how he teaches his own students not in the way he was trained but rather with more of a systema methodology.

Excellent meditations on the role of forms in practice and the relationship between kata and randori or, in CMA terms, between forms practice and sparring.

One other thing I took away from it was how astoundingly well credentialed these guys tend to be compared to most CMA peeps. Every where I look it seems like there are Japanese guys who spent 20 or 30 years with the same teacher and it seems like in JMA, Phd's are as common as black belts. We in the CMA world should take a note from those guys. A CMA guy who actually learned Chinese and got an advanced degree in something China related is something of a rarity. In the JMA it seems quite common (as a relative comparison anyways. Still rare in absolute terms I would expect).

Anyways, check it out.

[ashe]

i don't think it's necessary to learn how to speak Chinese (if your Sifu speaks fluent English) or get a degree in Chinese culture to get the art.

[bailewen]

Two questions:

1. Not necessary for what specifically? ie. To get what aspects of the art? You could certainly not get the Baji quanpu without learning Chinese. Much of the quan pu is cultural.

2. (And this one is more important) Other than necessity, what else does it reflect? Of course the podcast were all about Aikido and the language in question was Japanese not Chinese but do you not think that the pattern of highly ranked Aikidoka learning the language and getting advanced degrees related to their subject matter reflects something about their dedication?

My comments were not about the language in particular. That is an old topic. I only mentioned it as one specific example of how these guys seem to just take it to a higher level (Academically speaking) Fighting is one thing but carrying on lineage is another. As a standard bearer of sorts . . . well, let's take another example. How many professional opera singers speak or at least understnd Italian? How seriously is an opera singer taken who does not speak a second language? How about a Phd in philosophy with no real language skills in latin or german?

Getting back to my reframing of the question, rather than "have to" how about just considering how you evaluate the level of professionalism of an opera singer or philosopher who has, in addition to singing and philosophizing a lot, also learned Italian and French (Opera) or German, Greek and Latin (for Philosophy).

Aside from language, how about a degree in history specializing in the area where you art comes from? A specialist in the british longbow who happens to have a degree in European midaevil history? A painter with a degree in Italian or maybe Dutch history (depending on his style of painting).

Aside from learning Chinese (for CMA) how about a degree in TCM like Dr. Fish has? Oh yeah, and he speaks Chinese too. Coach Ross speaks Cantonese, Mandarin and has a relevant college degree (not language related).

None of this is necessary but it's all still pretty impressive.

[David Boxen]

Maybe one thing is that in North America if someone is going to get involved in Asian martial arts at a very early age, it is more likely to be Japanese, i.e. karate or judo. And in those karate classes (at least the ones I was in as a kid) everyone is taught the Japanese terms for what they are doing as part of the standardized curriculum. It's really no surprise that someone who sticks with Japanese arts for 20-30 years learns the language, seeing as how conformist Japanese things are in general.

[bailewen]

I think the language thing, because it is a bit of a charged issue (for reasons I don't really understand) is a distraction. It's such a tiny part of what I was driving at. Other similar or analogous examples (for CMA anyways) would be:

- A degree in Chinese medicine
- A degree in East Asian Philosophy
- Publishing a book on some aspect of what you study
- Formal lineage
- A position at the head of some large presitigious organization.
- Organizing an annual tournament.
- Founding an international organization related to the style.
- A degree in Chinese history.
- Awards in some large nationaly or internationally recognized tournament, especially one not devoted to your art in particular. (like a Sanda title or a decent MMA record)
- A University appointment in something culturally related.
- Teaching your specific art as a for credit course in a major unirsity.

Why all the focus on language? That completely misses the point I was making about these guys. And besides that, anyone actually check out any of the interviews? The credentialin aspect was just a sidebar.

[edededed]

I think language helps a big deal - so that you can at least understand the jargon and about what other people (of similar styles) are doing.

[David Boxen]

Well I'm not sure what you are driving at about the academic credentials. I personally did major in East Asian studies in my undergrad, and speak a little bit of putonghua, but I don't think it's helped me be able to do anything better with my body. Otoh, maybe I just have not been aware of ways in which it has helped.

[bailewen]

I don't think it's helped me be able to do anything better with my body.

So are you arguing that martial arts practice is a purely physical endeavor with no academic component worth mentioning?

Following the implied argument a little farther here then, you seem to be suggesting that there is no qualitative difference between:

Instructor A:
- Has absolutely no understanding of the cultural background of his art.
- knows nothing of its history.
- Is completely ignorant of the cultural context it was developed in.
- Is unaware of the the philosophical framework which guided it's development.
- Has no other training or education relevant to martial arts training.

Instructor B:
- Spent time in the homeland where his art was born, (Consdier non-martial arts as well like going to Buenos Ares for Tango or a Chinese kid coming to America to play basketball)
- Can give you both the traditionally handed down history and also an academic critique of such history along with framing not only his own personal view but a decent outline of all the major views out there on the subject and why people hold these views.
- Is completely educated in the philosophical framework which gave birth to the particular art form even though he personally may or may not subscribe to such a framework. If he does not, then he can give an intelligent critique of the original framework and explain why I does not agree.
- Holds an advanced degree in human physiology, physical therapy, philosophy, sports medicine, Chinese medicine or some other relevant field. (education)
- Has done military service and seen combat, is LEO of some sort of perhaps was trained in conflict management (additional training)

How can you honestly say that those two instructors are equvilent?

[oldtyger]

I think understanding the language of the art and the culture are quite valuable. Does it mean you can't learn a martial art well without it? No. However there have been many times I wished my Mandarin were at a level that I could just speak fluently with my various teachers. I tried to learn a little but had to drop out due to the busyness of a family( 3 little ones). I am absolutely certain, IMO, that if I were fluent in Mandarin I would have learned a lot more a lot quicker in my CMA. And I would also have been able to have more of a relationship with my teachers, many of whom have not had the best English skills.

I'm not sure I agree with the jargon biz. To me it seems different styles, different teachers frequently use the same words but have different interpretations of those same words( same Chinese characters). I'm thinking specifically of yi right now, but pretty much most of the taijiquan buzzwords seem to have different meanings depending upon whom you talk to.

I agree with Ashe that it does not matter if your teacher is fluent in English. The majority of my CMA teachers have not been fluent in English, however. And that's probably the case for many others.

[ashe]

well, in my case only, my Sifu has built the current curriculum and vocabulary for the entire art from the ground up entirely in the english language, so all the important concepts and philosophy are discussed in depth in english. so in this case, although i am picking up bits of chinese here and there, just from spending time around them, it doesn't actually help or improve my understanding of the art.

for instance i recently learned that liq hok, in hakka, means what i've been taught to call the mechanism of body movement. since i already understood what's meant by the mechanism, learning the hakka liq hok is just an academic bit of trivia.

the same holds true of our "quan pu" which was written in english by my Sifu as well.

but if i were learning a different art where my Sifu did not speak fluent english, then i would agree that i'd probably be missing some of the finer points of the concepts and philosophy if nothing else.

for the record, i think that the arts tend to lose something when they get two or three generations removed from any connection to the culture from which the sprang, but in terms of pure technical effectiveness i don't think it's necessary. any decent mma gym that teaches jj is proof of that.

after reading some of your other posts in this topic, i think i see what you're driving at, and i think that the problem is a general lack of professionalism / back yard martial arts mentality in CMA. but i know a lot of CMA dudes here locally who are TCM doctors of one sort or another and i don't think it's helped their MA one bit.

personally i think some decent certs like a cscs or rkc will do a lot more for your training than anything.

[David Boxen]

Here is what I think. Any outside study which you think is relevant to your martial art is therefor relevant. It all depends on what you consider "martial art" to encompass. I personally don't think taking Chinese history or philosophy classes in university benefited my martial art. I believe it would have been much more useful to study kinesiology (and maybe psychology). But then I didn't take those kind of classes because I thought they would make me a better martial artist.

I am thinking much along the same lines as Ashe, as I have a shifu in Dr. Painter, and other instructors underneath him, who do an excellent job at teaching purely in English. The philosophical concepts that are relevant to the art are part of the teaching itself, so besides perusing the I-Ching, there's not much outside study that I feel necessary.

[bailewen]

Why is it that after making a list of no less that EIGHT different potential qualifications NOT including language....

....all people can talk about is how important Chinese is or is not?

What is with the obsession with that little corner of the world? Insecurity? Sensitivity to some sort of percieved criticism? Where's all the defensiveness around the fact that no one posting so far (to my knowledge anyways) holds an advanced degree in a medically related field? Why is no one concerned that their historical knowledge is kind of sub-par? All I can come up with is that language skills are more obvious. It's much easier to comfort ourselves saying to ourselves that we actually really do know the history or that we know plenty about the way the human body works. But is it really reasonable to compare the knowledge one has obtained in those areas incidentally to that which comes from obtaining an advanced degree in the subject?

By way of analogy I am going to use....*groan*....language. Even though I hate that people obsess over it, it happens to be an area I have at least a little expertise in. Did you all know that being bilingual is considered grossly inadequate for professional translation employment? You are expected to have a degree in linguistics or in one of the languages you speak or at least some sort of professional certification. There are aspects to translation that are not apparent to the native bilingual speaker. By taking an in depth course of study you bring what, to a native speaker, may be sub or semi-conscious awareness, into your conscious mind. You are forced to take a much deeper look at the language than you would if you just went to the country and learned it through pure immersion. You examine it's history, the phonetics, the peculiarities of pronunciation that native speakers probably never even noticed (unless they have formally studied their own language)

Why should it be any different with physiology, kinesiology, history, philosophy are any other field? How can one compare casual personal study to what is involved in obtaining an advanced degree. I just barely completed my BA and although it was a pain in the ass, I have to admit, I learned a hell of a lot more about Chinese than anyone I have ever met who "just" traveled in China or attended a language school.

This is so not about fluency or about ability to communicate clearly with your teacher. This is about going deep into your subject. This is about going beyond "just" studying under a great teacher and really committing a significant portion of your life to something. Let's take a look at the "resume" of David Shaner Sensei(from the latest podcast that I linked):

- Chief instructor for the Eastern Ki Federation
- Japan headquarters advisor to eastern Europe and Western Russia
- Trained with Tohei Sensei (sp?) for 38 years and was an "uchi deshi" (live in student according the podcast; one of only 2 non-Japanese ever to do so)
- Teacher at Furman University for 26 years as a professor of philosophy and Asian studies.
- Chair of Dept. of Philosophy.
- Either Author, Co-author or series editor of over 40 books including "The Body-Mind Experience in Japanese Buddhism" which was part of his doctoral thesis at the University of Hawaii nearly 30 years ago.
- Served as a LEO in Colorado.
- Ceasar Palace and Mirage Casino in Los Vegas have both employed him for security training and qualification.
- Olympic ski team competitor.
- Founded Shaner and Associates in 1987 to research "performance development"; Basically he comes in an help fortune 500 companies increase their management efficiancy (by applying the principles of his art in a corporate context)
- Fullbright Scholar with various scientific awards.
- A fellow at Harvard University affiliated with the department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations.

How in the HELL can this be reduced to "oh well you don't really need to speak the language"

This dude is fucking credentialed and it's all related to his art.

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[GrahamB]

I think it's a lot easier to make a 'career' (or a full time occupation) out of something like Aikido - it's all very organised - you can be a live in student and study full time, etc.... Same with Tae Kwon Do (spelling?) it's all very commercially organised for full time employment/setting up your own Dojo. Chinese arts don't seem to be like that.

Oh yeah, and you don't need to speak Chinese, Omar

[bailewen]

Well my original comment:

We in the CMA world should take a note from those guys.

I think it is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" sort of thing. They are all very organized because the people in these arts are organized. Someone has to do the organization.

Not that the vast majority of what Mr.Shaner has accomplished it entirely possible withing the CMA world. Almost none of it is specific to Aikido at all.

- University appointment regarding philosophy not Aikdo.
- Served as a LEO and trained security personel.
- Professor of Asian studies.
- etc.

Notice that very few of the things he has accomplished are necessarily specific to Aikido. I probably noticed so much because I wish I had started ealier in life and I still have dreams of doing much of that sort of thing. I would like to move and get either an MA in Chinese Language and Literature or get a TCM degree of some sort. I would like to organize trips for my teacher and basically sponsor workshops. That would mean forming an American branch of our school. I really admire what Ashe is doing with his wiki the wusource. Tadzio no longer posts here but did you know he went on to do graduate work in Chinese with a focus on Confusianism? Did his studies in a Chinese school no less.

If the Japanese and Korean organizations are better organized, then maybe we should be studying them, at least studying their organizational structure anyways.

[JusticeZero]

Well, personally I strongly need to travel to Brazil (country of origin of art), spend some time with the GM, get some practice with the language, so I can see the context; academic degrees probably won't do much, though i've read several doctoral theses on the art. They all came up short and baffled. In my case this is because the art is very very DISorganized. The history was burned, it was spread by poor thugs and such playing with each other in the street and swapping/improvizing tricks, and the religion most closely related to it is cagy as heck, and some scholars indicate that if they were to claim that they were lied to every time they saw lips moving, it would be likely crediting them with far more open-ness than they received.
Does the high organization structures actually have some real benefit? For any claim of quality control, one can cite cases of entire organizations killing their own QC and trying to force the high quality schools to dumb down. Organizing for the sake of organizing doesn't actually seem all that constructive.