Internal Striking?

[Fubo]

I didn't discuss different styles of chinese caligraphy. I used it to give examples of qualities that I believe is similar to what we strive for in IMA - precision, body awareness, etc. If you haven't studied IMA for quite some time, you will not understand what qualities belong to this art. But you might have studied some art, music, sports etc. so you can use some analogies to give a better picture on what we strive for. I think you must have understood what I meant.

I understand the "qualities" that belong to the IMA, and I understand the analogies you were striving for, but I think to me the "internal" refers to finding the most efficient and effortless way as applied to the specific task at hand... the specific task in IMA being the study of physical conflict involves the use of the body and it's power in specific way to make the task efficient, but to make the specific task of the painting "efficient and effortless" relative to what the painting is trying to achieve does not fall under the same guide lines as MA.

[Chris McKinley]

My contribution: ......(blah, blah, blah...insert lots of long-winded hot air here). I'm feeling lazy today.

[Fubo]

Ai-yah! Yau mo gau cho ah!

With all due respect, I am so sick of hearing about the opinions of Tim Cartmell and Bruce Kumar Frantzis, the two most frequently referenced examples, as the final word of expert authority on damned near every topic here that I could puke!

Doc

Maybe you hear Tim Cartmell reference's so much because he is one of the few people around that not only has vast experience in IMA, but also produces high quality material without esoteric language... which is more then I can say for the majority of IMA products out there produced by some "Si Fu". I can see why people respect that. Referencing his ideas (if ones ideas are similar) can be a convenient way to get across one's own ideas without typing long winded posts on beaten to death subjects.

[taoistfist]

i have felt this a few times. one such time i was lightly tapped, (put your hand on a flat surface lift your fingers and let them drop, that is how soft it was) on my ribs. it was kind of below my pec about a hands width. anyways after the touch a shooting/piercing pain was happening on the opposite side of my body and up a bit from the original spot. the pain caused me to double over and gasp for breath. it hurt more than most hard hits i have ever received.
now i was not expecting anything of the like before this happened. i was just punching, very quickly i might add, at my teachers face. i thought he was going to do a block/hit or step aside and smack me like thing.
the other people who saw this just looked at me like i was putting on a show or something, to them it looked like he just put his hand on my side for a brief second, i talked to a couple of them after. my teacher smacked my shoulder and lifted me upright and winked at me. then whispered in my ear "i know and you know". that was it. the pain went away fairly quickly after he smacked me and straightened me out.
yup. one example for ya. i think it's enough.
lando

[Michael]

Injuring someone from a light touch requires transmission of qi. The best way to understand how this works is to learn how to transmit qi for the purposes of healing through one of the many methods that are available.

[Daniel]

Injuring someone from a light touch requires transmission of qi. The best way to understand how this works is to learn how to transmit qi for the purposes of healing through one of the many methods that are available.

True. Qi and mind. Problem is that most people want to skip to doing the sci-fi stuff, and don´t understand that it usually required the slightly more boring twenty odd years of physically based training hours on end, without which you can´t do it for real when you get older. You don´t have to go through healing others to learn it, but it´s often a help. It also keeps you balanced in your mind, and less apt to become Darth Vader once you really start getting the skills we´re discussing here.

There are several precise exercises for developing this ability, but the kind of strike that was the root of this thread - light touch with huge effect - is something that takes 20 years or more. It might be useful to focus on something else if one is at, say, year 3 and practices 20 minutes a day.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Andy_S]

CJ Wang:

I'd refer you to my post on the previous page and Fubo's on this one. Success speaks for itself.

This is particularly so in IMA when so many people talk a great game (take a look at some of the comments on this thread) but so few have a good game. (By "game," I mean combative and/or competitive experience, not demonstrations against credulous students in closed-door schools.)

[Bao]

Success speaks for itself.

No.

... George Dillman, Erle Montague, "master" Goering, Sim Poo Ho etc etc etc. There are many people being successful for many different reasons.



C.J. Wang: I suggest that you start a new thread with your question if you want some kind of answer.

[RobP2]

No.

... George Dillman, Erle Montague, "master" Goering, Sim Poo Ho etc etc etc. There are many people being successful for many different reasons.

Ture. Perhaps because there are a lot of people looking for a magic bullet, an easy way to deal with people, just a wave of the hand..... The irony is that any real high-level ability that looks easy is the result of severe training. I wouldn't say it's a 20 year thing neccesarily, I think it depends more on how much you are prepared to go through. I've seen people get very quick results in a short time with very intense training - and I don't mean just physically, but emotionally and psychologically. I think that is more the key to this kind of work.

The danger is that some people like to push training for this work without understanding, or caring, about the risks involved. So they either fall into the trap of being an "empty force" master (and in the end start to believe their own publicity) and/or actually damaging their students in the process. That's why for me it pays to go to professional people rather than profoessional martial arts people

[GrahamB]

That's why for me it pays to go to professional people rather than profoessional martial arts people

Er... aren't you a professional martial artist Rob?

[klonk]

Without any particular effort to say who is a fraud and who isn't, I think we should say clearly that frauds exist in martial arts. Sometimes the fraud isn't even intentional. Some kinds of teachers have the misfortune to attract a certain kind of student, the kind who wants to be awed, and having this kind of student may prove disastrous to the master. Being put on a pedestal may be the teacher's undoing.

The problem is such a student will take a dive, and need not ever be explicitly told to do so. I am not a psychologist, but think of myself as a practical observer of human nature. Some people are easily cowed. Some people want to be cowed or controlled or want to feel they are in contact with something remarkable. If what you want is a magical master with one touch knockout skills, there is an easy way to make one for yourself. When students are controlled at a touch by their super-masters, warning flags should be flying in our minds. Of course, if the student is controlled without being touched at all, we may write off the matter as mere tomfoolery.

The question is this, can the super-master in question walk up to someone who doesn't know him from Adam and exert the kind of light touch control seen, sometimes, in demonstrations? That's my question, anyway.

[martialartist]

I didn't discuss different styles of chinese caligraphy. I used it to give examples of qualities that I believe is similar to what we strive for in IMA - precision, body awareness, etc. If you haven't studied IMA for quite some time, you will not understand what qualities belong to this art. But you might have studied some art, music, sports etc. so you can use some analogies to give a better picture on what we strive for. I think you must have understood what I meant.

I understand the "qualities" that belong to the IMA, and I understand the analogies you were striving for, but I think to me the "internal" refers to finding the most efficient and effortless way as applied to the specific task at hand... the specific task in IMA being the study of physical conflict involves the use of the body and it's power in specific way to make the task efficient, but to make the specific task of the painting "efficient and effortless" relative to what the painting is trying to achieve does not fall under the same guide lines as MA.

Internal and external refer to the body. All starts with Yellow Emperors "Internal Bible (Nei Jing)", the famous medical classic. Not sure what "internal striking" is supposed to be and whether or not that is an actual term from the Chinese MA lexicon.

What people are doing here is talking about way of interacting with an opponent that are higher level, and then trying to describe it by saying 'internal striking'. Perhaps in some situations, this term is accurate in some sense, as the person is using his body structure and mind rather than brute force. But, I maintain that calling something 'internal striking' is rather vague... "internal" is a focus (of training, in the case of IMA) that points inwards rather than outward.

[Bao]

But, I maintain that calling something 'internal striking' is rather vague... "internal" is a focus (of training, in the case of IMA) that points inwards rather than outward.

I think you are right - that "internal striking" is rather vague. And it can also seem a bit contradictory. I also think that your description af "internal" is very good.

When you practice striking, you can focus on using as much strength as possible together with as much "body" as possible, like throwing yourself full speed into the target, trying to maximize the speed and use of mass. Sure, this is all good practice. And most styles have this kind of practice.

But you can also focus on relaxing as much as possible, together with a focus on angle and body mechanics, as coordinating different force vectors together. Not many style practice striking in a structured way, with a detailed use of mechanics, how to coordinate vector, how to support your stike with your base and spine from avery possible angle. Because not many styles or teachers have this rather slow and methodological way to teach striking, I prefer calling this method of teaching, together with the result of the same teaching, "internal striking methods". The result will become quite awesome. It is powerful, fast, relaxed and the force seems to come from nowhere. This is what I call "internal striking" and not "qi-touching"

[RobP2]

Er... aren't you a professional martial artist Rob?

Not especially, I'm not really mainstream anymore, just run one class and workshops and a bit of private work. Can't be doing with all the nonsense to be honest

[Ian]

What people are doing here is talking about way of interacting with an opponent that are higher level, and then trying to describe it by saying 'internal striking'.

Why not try listening and reading first instead of preaching to the choir. Most of your 20+ posts have been accumulated in this topic, criticising people whom you've never met, about whom you know absolutely nothing, and who, incidentally, are already at a decent level of skill.

Who are you, by the way? Someone who does taiji and boxing? Not exactly uncommon on this forum. No, who are your teachers and how long have you trained? This is considered basic courtesy so that people can determine whether to treat you as someone whose opinions are worthwhile, or just another nobody.

Yes, your definition of internal is spot on. How about this - internal striking is striking done by someone who trains in an internal style. If the term ruffles your feathers, I suggest you take your objections and start a separate topic ("what is internal") and see how fast it gets sent to the pit. In the meantime, I'd ask you to please stop muddying an otherwise interesting discussion. Thanks.