All efficient movement is similar

[Ian]

What do you think of the idea that all efficient movement is similar?

I don't mean that iliqchuan = ziranmen = systema = 'essence of evolution' = aunkai, nor do I mean that these styles don't have their respective strengths and focuses.

Rather, that if you really grasp efficient movement, you should have less trouble picking up another style (assuming said style is also based on efficient movement).

If you find that, on learning another style, you struggle with the concepts as much as you used to struggle as a complete beginner, then perhaps you don't really understand efficient movement.

Ps. I know some of you are itching to regurgitate that Bruce Lee "two arms, two legs" thing. Please restrain yourselves

[Chris McKinley]

Dunno...maybe. You haven't distilled it down to objective enough terms for us to agree or disagree that your statement is objectively true.

[Ian]

In a separate post, for clarity...

Questions:

1. Have you ever found yourself trying out a different style and totally sucking because it clashed with your style 'major'? Perhaps sucking more so than if you had gone in without prior training?

2. If you were to pick up another style today, would you be able to do so significantly faster than someone who has no martial training?

[Bhassler]

What do you think of the idea that all efficient movement is similar?

I don't mean that iliqchuan = ziranmen = systema = 'essence of evolution' = aunkai, nor do I mean that these styles don't have their respective strengths and focuses.

Rather, that if you really grasp efficient movement, you should have less trouble picking up another style (assuming said style is also based on efficient movement).

If you find that, on learning another style, you struggle with the concepts as much as you used to struggle as a complete beginner, then perhaps you don't really understand efficient movement.

Ps. I know some of you are itching to regurgitate that Bruce Lee "two arms, two legs" thing. Please restrain yourselves

First off , I would differentiate the skill of learning from the skill of efficient movement. Usain Bolt is an efficient sprinter, but that doesn't mean he would be a great track coach or could more easily learn to run a marathon.

I agree that efficient movement is efficient movement, but it has to be efficient relative to a particular intent. You can refer to the above example, or you could compare say MMA with kenjitsu. MMA guys have totally different practical and strategic considerations than swordsmen.

If, however, you learn how the body works mechanically (and by learning I mean can embody it in movement) then that will apply to anything you do, including diverse MA, as long as you are clear in your intent (so the guys referenced in another thread who are so stuck on their IMA theory that they won't move their head out of the way of a knife are not expressing a clear intent).

[JusticeZero]

1. Have you ever found yourself trying out a different style and totally sucking because it clashed with your style 'major'? Perhaps sucking more so than if you had gone in without prior training?

Yes, I have done that. With TJQ no less. I didn't suck in TJQ, I can imitate movements well, but it was uncomfortable to do some movements and I had to really force them. At a certain point I belatedly realized that the majority of my training time in both classes was being and had been for some time devoted purely to undoing the effects of the other class; I dropped the TJQ like a hot fork.
If I tried another art, I could get movement to a certain level easily enough, but it would have a very thick accent. Some things would likely give me trouble for violating movement principles.

[Bao]

1. Have you ever found yourself trying out a different style and totally sucking because it clashed with your style 'major'? Perhaps sucking more so than if you had gone in without prior training?

No, not sucking. But I tried Thai boxing when I was about 14 years old and found it tremendously boring. I just wanted to go home and practice on my tai chi.

2. If you were to pick up another style today, would you be able to do so significantly faster than someone who has no martial training?

Depends, if I find it boring I will probably not pick it up very fast. Motivation, focus, etc. Many things has to do with your success in stuff.

[Walk the Torque]

What do you think of the idea that all efficient movement is similar?

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I think it really depends on what you are doing with the movements. Efficient blocking is really different from efficient listening/following; Just as efficient use of the body's physical material (flesh, bones, structure) is different from efficient use of the body's forces of momentum.

[velalavela]

What do you think of the idea that all efficient movement is similar?

Hi,

It's a good question.

What about the idea that in the end all efficient fighting is similar. As I guess this being a martial arts forum when you talk about efficient movement you are talking about fighting.

[C.J.Wang]

Nice post, Ian.

I don't know if I'd go as far as claiming that all efficient movements are similar, but I do believe, and have both observed and experienced firsthand, that in IMA the statement seems to hold true.

As my Bagua teacher is fond of saying, a good way to see if you've mastered one style of IMA is to meet high-level pracitioners of other IMA systems and see if you can "do what they can do right away" in terms of body skills, or at least learn the skills much, much faster than a beginner.

[Ian]

First off , I would differentiate the skill of learning from the skill of efficient movement. Usain Bolt is an efficient sprinter, but that doesn't mean he would be a great track coach or could more easily learn to run a marathon.

Sorry, I just took for granted that people understand that specific disciplines have specific requirements. I'm not talking about gymnasts or swimmers, but martial artists. You're entirely correct, thought.

I agree that efficient movement is efficient movement, but it has to be efficient relative to a particular intent. You can refer to the above example, or you could compare say MMA with kenjitsu. MMA guys have totally different practical and strategic considerations than swordsmen.

That's why I specifically stated efficient movement rather than effective movement.

In my mind, at least, when your movement is efficient, you're doing things like generating speed and power with the minimum amount of unnecesary effort.

When you get into effectiveness, you're talking about the next step - strategy, timing, distance, accuracy, recovering from disruptions etc. Not really what I had in mind for this topic, tbh.

If, however, you learn how the body works mechanically (and by learning I mean can embody it in movement) then that will apply to anything you do, including diverse MA

Yeah that's what I was getting at.

As my Bagua teacher is fond of saying, a good way to see if you've mastered one style of IMA is to meet high-level pracitioners of other IMA systems and see if you can "do what they can do right away" in terms of body skills, or at least learn the skills much, much faster than a beginner.

Ah cool! Thanks.

[Ian]

2:05 An example of efficient but not necessarily effective movement (it's the training, not the practice).



Can you do this? Is this important to you?

[GrahamB]

The very best examples of 'efficient' movement are provided by the animal kingdom. It's all around us but we hardly ever notice it. You can see it all the time when a pigeon lands on a tree or a cat jumps up a wall, but some of the rarer animals provide more spectacular examples. Just watch these Sea Eagles performing dazzling displays of efficient movement that human beings can rarely get close to:



Combining the internal (Yi, Chi, Jin, Xin, Shen) with external physical movement (Li) - it's all going on in the animal kingdom!

[Sprint]

2:05 An example of efficient but not necessarily effective movement (it's the training, not the practice).

What he describes at 3.40 is exactly in accord with what Bruce Kumar Frantzis talks about. BKF says "And in this gap or pause, the mind often unconciously goes temporarily blank, leaving the body without power, if only for a very small amount of time" here it is described as "moving through the gaps and spaces of your mind"

This, as far as efficient movement is concerned, is where it's at in my opinion. So to answer your original question the answer, I think, is yes, since this is Japanese and BKF was talking CIMA.

[bigphatwong]

The very best examples of 'efficient' movement are provided by the animal kingdom. It's all around us but we hardly ever notice it. You can see it all the time when a pigeon lands on a tree or a cat jumps up a wall, but some of the rarer animals provide more spectacular examples. Just watch these Sea Eagles performing dazzling displays of efficient movement that human beings can rarely get close to:



Combining the internal (Yi, Chi, Jin, Xin, Shen) with external physical movement (Li) - it's all going on in the animal kingdom!

Graham has beaten his wings, soared high above the Correct and crapped on the hood of its Camry.

[Brady]

IMA study has given me incredible cross over potential, just about any art I learn (minus capoeira-too much funk) I get quicker than others starting at the same time.

My personal belief is that all efficient movement has similar underlying principles, and delving deep to these principles enhances one's innate athleticism. So at the deepest level there is similarity.
However, I think Yin style Bagua is such a great style because it trains 8 animal strategies. All very different, all with important aspects, and they don't look or feel very alike to me. Although the higher ups of YSB often say they are essentially the same, until you reach that principle level, they seem very different in my mind.

I think a more revealing question would be what principles are always found in efficient martial movement and where can we see acceptable differences?