Great article

[KEND]

This has been a very interesting thread, it is not often that we get down to the specifics of internal training. I think that we should be careful in distinguishing the various types of internal training. Over the last few years I have been training in LHBF and was made aware of a very specific training that links up the body through muscles and more importantly, tendons, in order to give you great physical strength. I had done some of this in the past through Shaolin muscle and tendon training but this appeared to go beyond that. Now in the past I have undergone various types of training for producing shock power[via small muscles], connection[from standing], intent, sensitivity through various forms of push hands[sensing or feeling an opponents center or power] etc. Some of these individual trainings complement and/or augment others, some dont. I think it is important we clearly distinguish which does what to understand the function of each one. The training comes together as a whole when used in combat and sometimes we lose sight of the individual pieces.

[Wanderingdragon]

I am curious about this training in LHPF that offers up great physical strength , I too have been studying this art , and although I have always known my own strength , it seems I have found new stores . There is nothing in my training that states specifically that this will enhance physical strength, so I was curious if you could discribe some specific examples of this strength or the excersises you speak of

[everything]

Interesting. Lately I am suspecting tendon strength is a side effect of internal work and not the main factor in internal strength. It doesn't seem sufficiently well explained in either IMA or bodybuilding or strength circles.

[Wanderingdragon]

[quote="Tom"]This type of training in LHBF is apparently held fairly close--or at least, it used to be. It is an example of the importance of forging the frame, building the body (tanren in Japanese)--the body work--that Akuzawa (through his Aunkai methods) and Dan Harden advocate today, that Sagawa Yukiyoshi and probably Ueshiba engaged in training under Takeda Sokaku, and that Takeda himself probably engaged in--source unknown, but with some reasoned speculation forthcoming this summer in a book by Ellis Amdur.

In the world of CMAs, at least one line of Yiquan (from Han Xingyuan) practices a tendon-conditioning method (per John Medurga); and baguazhang (particularly in the Yin Fu lines) at least knows of the practice and integrates it with circle-walking. I can't really speak to xingyi or taiji.

With LHBF, its first public exponent, Wu Yihui, while seated, threw someone over the table where he was drinking tea. That kind of internal connection and strength does not come from practicing long sequences of empty solo movements. There either has to be a foundational set of exercises which builds the body that performs the sequence, or there has to be a very specific way of training the movements in the sequence (holding the endpoint postures, working the transitions with visualized or real resistance, etc.). LHBF (like Ziranmen) has its own set of foundational exercises. One willnot realize the internal power that Ken spoke of above simply from flacidly waving one's way through the "Main Form" of LHBF.[/quote54]


heresay and legend , Does anyone have an honest experience, a true example of the training or result thereof as described above.

[everything]

some of us talked about experiences being on the receiving end of these skills here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=423

[Bodywork]

A very simplistic model would say that the strengthening tendon/'fascia is different than power from lifting. I used to be huge-235 lb power lifter-I dumped it and started to gain real strength to move people. "Muscle is light, tight and easy to fight. "
Knitting the body together so that you thicken and activate the fascia and tendons as a chain of support with the frame and within the muscles and at their anchor points enables your body to do things that it will not do by lifting. The most noteworthy effect is that with trained intent. Intent has a very real and palpable quality to it. When you move it has an immediate effect on them moving. Sort of like a one to one ratio of cause and affect- on them. Further it is the retained movement within you-that they cannot access during movement that makes a defining difference on what they are able to access to get your center. Of course all this gets heavily skewed when feet and hands come into play as set ups or fight enders on their own. but the power in strikes and kicks and the ability to move and offer them without it changing your internal game-as they are just a natural flow is another subject alltogether.

[Wanderingdragon]

Yeah, okay I understand, no mystical training just understanding the physical machanics of power.

[everything]

i had a non-MA experience that dan's words above on fascia and knitting the body together aptly describe last night, when attempting the butterfly swim stroke. i am not a swimmer so never learned this stroke, but I sorta got it down from watching my son learn it.

compared to the other strokes, it seems very powerful yet it felt like it is just whole body coordination and very little local "muscling" if at all. a literal wave starts with the arms and heads diving in and transmits all the way to the toes. of course it's from muscle but felt more like whole body knitted together + power from its own momentum. maybe any real swimmers here can describe it better and explain the analogy.

also, there does seem to be "something else" in IMA that isn't at all like those swim stroke mechanics, but that is virtually impossible to talk about. neither tendon nor fascia explains it, but "mystical", "qi", whatever, can't really do it either, in my view. you know it when you feel it.

[Josealb]

also, there does seem to be "something else" in IMA that isn't at all like those swim stroke mechanics, but that is virtually impossible to talk about. neither tendon nor fascia explains it, but "mystical", "qi", whatever, can't really do it either, in my view. you know it when you feel it.

Ill quote Sam Spade on this one..."its the stuff dreams are made of."

[everything]

yes, lol. I don't mean to get all hippie on you.