Great article

[ors]

I think it is a misunderstanding. As I remember Sagawa said the same as you Interloper. He said that you CAN develop muscles after the age of 50 as well, that is why you can improve in older age as well....

Örs

[baguaboy]

Not sure that i agree with strengthening tendons - or even lengthening them. I agree that targeting the mantle around them does 'support them', but lengthening or stretching tendons will weaken them. Tendons have little vascular or blood relationship as I understand it.

I agree than visualisation can add a extra efficiency/co-ordination of movement and folding of muscle groups adds a quality to strength though.
And diet is important!

[yusuf]

more importantly, can one take pieces of 'system X' of body development / yoga and incorporate it into 'system Y' of combat?

[Bodywork]

I agree with interloper. And that study, was highly regarded and is now in use in geriatric medicine. My wife is an NP, ANP, GNP and they track growth from load bearing exercises. A far more important aspect -for us- is in not just training muscle But training connective tendon/ fascia.
A Daito ryu student, older guy, broke his arm and the Docs noted thicker bone and thicker connective tissue on X-ray. Most guys will note serious internal people have thicker bodies, with wrists, ankles, and waist area being key factors. Newbies who poke fun at the "cheese belly" just have to step up and try and hit it and see what happens when it goes from soft to hard in the blink of an eye or they try and throw these men and see the results for their efforts.
As for independant body training being able to be used in various arts? I agree with Tom
While, I'm no expert, I have teachers from Karate, Judo, Aikido, Taiji, Kali, Aunkai, MMA etc, who train independant body skills here and they...not me...advocate that the power and softness is invigorating their own arts. Several of whom have stated what is happening to their own bodies is being lauded by their own tradtional senior level teachers as progression and understanding...in all of their individual arts -several of which I don't know anything about! There is no way to explain that- other than the shen fa is, in many ways universal to what is needed in man arts.
That said the discussion could be had if the key in many arts is in changing your body -not mastering waza. I think the internal method(s) result in many similar body connections. There are some key differences in where and how you carry your weight, whether to move and generate from the hips or draw the kua through the waist but I'd be willing to be there are far more commonalities in use.
To really cap off the body being used in X art or in Y...the best part is go play with grapplers who think you are full of shit for even bringing it up and would just love to prove it to you! There's nothing like being in your 50's and going through grapplers in their 20's and 30's without much effort and them having to sit down after you hit or kick them. After they get that deer in the headlights look they get the "Did that old man really just do that to me?" look. As one Seal said to me looking me up and down " You don't look like much!"
Body conditioning works. Why people have trouble understanding the nuetraility of it is puzzling to me.
Tell them to run and do cardio, and lift...... and they expect results.
Tell them to condition internally ......and they look at you like you're nuts...
Till you hit them and throw them.
Cheers
Dan

[Interloper]

Newbies who poke fun at the "cheese belly" just have to step up and try and hit it and see what happens when it goes from soft to hard in the blink of an eye or they try and throw these men and see the results for their efforts.

"Cheese belly"? Did someone mention "cheese belly"?

[Josealb]

"Cheese belly"? Did someone mention "cheese belly"?

Wang has got nothing on Ma Yueh Liang.

[AllanF]

I think it is a misunderstanding. As I remember Sagawa said the same as you Interloper. He said that you CAN develop muscles after the age of 50 as well, that is why you can improve in older age as well....

Örs

Just to set the record straight...

My bad, i mis-remebered what Sagawa said, having reread my info, he did indeed say the same as Interpoler.

That'll teach me to get too excited at the keyboard.

[Bodywork]

Who cares..it really isn't the point. Since were into quoting him, it is worth considering he went on and on about solo training to temper the body, that it was about training the body in central equlibrium, and while he himself doesn't discuss everything he did we know he practiced aiki in yo ho-equal to bone marrow breathing, and supposedly a thousand shiko (sumo stomp, central axis opening the kua, crosslline body exercises, that really train intent) and he practiced the strange notion of doing slow motion connection drills to capture center on contact against full resistance and hold it through many changes and movements of feet, hand and body postions while building it, and many, other things. Most considered him one of the most powerful martial artists and hands down the best Daito ryu man of his day.
You can have the rest of the book, the idea of building muscle...whatever age, all the techniques you could want, and all the ranks you want. Who cares.
I took the road both he and one of his students pointed down and never looked back. And in the process willfully and with great effort stopped lifting and shed some twenty pounds of muscle.....and in the process started gaining real power. I can't wait to be sixty, seventy, it keeps getting better every year.
Various quotes from Sagawa.

"Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training. Only amateurs think that techniques are enough. They understand nothing."

“Through the process of tempering my body, I realized that in abandoning my quest for power, my true strength emerged. I temporarily named this power the Transparent Power.” “You don’t receive the opponent’s force, you prevent him from using it. You don’t let him impinge on you. You don’t bear the brunt of his power. Because of the way this art works, you can use it even when you are old. Aiki completely transcends age, but without Aiki, you can’t perform well when you’re old.”

"I gradually came to understand these things. For example, I continued to train my body for about 14 years doing the sumo exercise 1,000 times every day, or sometimes even 10,000 times, for five hours. I wondered what it was I was training. Then, suddenly, I realized that I wasn’t training my muscles, but rather something inside my body. I gradually understood that something very near the core of the physical body that is not the body was strengthened by doing the sumo exercise."

"If you depend on muscular strength, it is physically impossible to throw more than two people at the same time when they really hold strongly. Even using Ki energy, I think it is impossible because your opponents also have Ki power to a certain extent. Without Aiki, it’s not possible. If you don’t understand Aiki to the point that you can completely change the conditions of your opponents’ bodies, it can’t be done."


Cheers
Dan

[AllanF]

Dan

I'm going way off topic here but what the hell...
Could you explain what the Daihiden exercises are? Are these the sumo stopping? (As i have no knowledge of japanese)

Many thanks in advance.
Allan

[Ian]

And in the process willfully and with great effort stopped lifting and shed some twenty pounds of muscle.....and in the process started gaining real power.

I've done this as well and experienced something similar. Obviously not the same result, but the difference is noticeable.

Of course I was never really a lifter - I only tested it in earnest for two sets of 12 weeks. But I arrived at the conclusion that it's not about muscle (by testing to my own satisfaction, rather than parroting my teachers).

[ors]

"I gradually came to understand these things. For example, I continued to train my body for about 14 years doing the sumo exercise 1,000 times every day, or sometimes even 10,000 times, for five hours. I wondered what it was I was training. Then, suddenly, I realized that I wasn’t training my muscles, but rather something inside my body. I gradually understood that something very near the core of the physical body that is not the body was strengthened by doing the sumo exercise."

"If you depend on muscular strength, it is physically impossible to throw more than two people at the same time when they really hold strongly. Even using Ki energy, I think it is impossible because your opponents also have Ki power to a certain extent. Without Aiki, it’s not possible. If you don’t understand Aiki to the point that you can completely change the conditions of your opponents’ bodies, it can’t be done."


Cheers
Dan

Dan!

You are a cheater!

These last two quotes are from Kimura and not Sagawa!...

By the way! I know that this is off topic a little bit, but what do you (or Interloper) think they mean on the word “aiki” actually?
I mean the term…
Internal connections? Self generated power? Internal strength? Connected body? Or something philosophical term?
The ability to “close” your partner? (I know, that someone said that this phrase is not unique to Daito-ryu, and that in sword arts it means something about the relations of the centers of the opponents but I would like to ask about how they use it in Daito-ryu..)
I don’t speak Japanese at all and the word “aiki” you can’t find AFAIR in Chinese phrases…

I can see lots of similarities in daito ryu and the Chinese IMA’s, but this term has no counterpart in CIMA, as I know…

Thanks in advance!

Örs

[Bodywork]

Dan!

You are a cheater!

These last two quotes are from Kimura and not Sagawa!...

Hah! Shows you what late night posting will do,what was it 1:00am I rummaged through and pulled quotes here and there.

By the way! I know that this is off topic a little bit, but what do you (or Interloper) think they mean on the word “aiki” actually?
I mean the term…
Internal connections? Self generated power? Internal strength? Connected body? Or something philosophical term?
The ability to “close” your partner? (I know, that someone said that this phrase is not unique to Daito-ryu, and that in sword arts it means something about the relations of the centers of the opponents but I would like to ask about how they use it in Daito-ryu..)
I don’t speak Japanese at all and the word “aiki” you can’t find AFAIR in Chinese phrases…

I can see lots of similarities in daito ryu and the Chinese IMA’s, but this term has no counterpart in CIMA, as I know…

Thanks in advance!

What does aiki mean? Hah? Good luck! No one agrees on what it IS in the first place. Arguing over aiki is akin to arguing over internal power. It's more fun to watch paint dry. Comically though no one argues with you in person-if you have it. Its obvious.

In a classic sense it is the joining of centers, but two classical master level teachers I know both argue over even that much. a) One says matching of intent and leading, b)the other says it isabout the suprior one matching and stealing the other mans ability and he is under your control. Not without merit the second teacher trained with a Master level aiki man and a Master level ICMA Legend.
Now add to that the various DR schools; who are all different and do not agree on aiki as a method, and like taiji most of whom have many students who stink up the place who are convinced they get it!

Too me the whole discussion is akin to the "power change" thread going on here.
Most everyone's understanding seems to always boil down to DOING something to somebody. The beginer continually sees it and thinks "AHA I have to get better at techniques and principles and stay ahead of the guy." If that was all there was to the equation they would be right.
I believe the vast majority of martial artists missed it. Aiki is in / yo ho (yin yang method) a balance of energy in you that becomes so profound -over time- that your body is exquisitly balanced and "strong in balance." Thus it becomes a son of bitch to deal with when both opponents meet. The superior one. while controlling contradiciting forces within, feels any energy coming in and sends or adds it to his own, instantly changing it. So it becomces a question of negsting their intent from the onset. Over time you become better at it and it becomes a matter of changing force in you on the fly. Or self generating force.
Ironically, if externally "DOING things to people" with tricks and teachniques, all there were to it, ...why do you think so many greats of all the arts, spent sooooo much fecking time training solo to change their bodies?

As far as matching ICMA. All we can do it talk about it. I think it is fairly obvious that few seem to agree, even those in the same arts. In any even Daito ryu is based on spiraling energy, seems to me so is much of ICMA.
Cheers
Dan

[everything]

chimerical, what dan is talking about is what i really want to get to... in the meantime, the leverage angle fulcrum technique thing works

[Bodywork]

chimerical, what dan is talking about is what i really want to get to... in the meantime, the leverage angle fulcrum technique thing works

Sure but even that has some interesting tricks that work and when you think about it-one mans study of angles and fulcrums is not the same as anothers.
There are tricks based on leverage and fulcrums, tricks based on changing fulcrums, and reallly good jujutsu or Judo can be amazingly soft and fluid but it isn't aiki. As for tricks, people get stuck on them, but the truth is they were meant to work and really only come into their own- if the body is connected. Case in point let's use a wrist grab training tool, I hate wrist grabs, I am using it for a demonstration. even though I hate them...."Did I say I hate them?" Anyway, with someone grabbing your wrist you can take up slack (there is a long paper right there; What is slack? where does it come? from where is it best eliminated and how? Few realize the origins are within the body. You take up slack in you first not in the connection) back to description. Think of it like drawing a cable between each of you, now there is nothing left to change, then drop your elbow toward them-WHILE maintaining tthe distance and height of the grab, This increasing the "cable" length by tensioning it and it magically draws them to you. In a wierd way you can give them up energy (they go up on their toes) and then increase the up energy by shooting something down and in (your elbow). Then try it with someone grabbing yur arm or clothes. Anyone can be taught to do that "trick" but using it in fighting -say in a fast moving judo match is not as clean or precise, but in an instant causes them to lose the ground and creates "flash" openings to take advantage of. The point though is that it will not work -at all- unless you have a whole bunch of other training in your body. So, at the level where you are facing freestyle pressure you will fail and resort to muscle. So, to an outsider, "your aiki" will be accurately judged as " bulshit" when put under grappling pressure, and they would be correct. it was. Why? Because you relied on tricks and not on the real hard work that followed-changing the body.
Deeper work is realizing that anything that is touched as postives and negatives operating in spirals within you. Every out -say up and out on right is supported by down and in on left, over and over, even in is supported by in and up and in and down, always reducing their power or ability to effect you. Add punching and kicking and it gets to be fun.

Cheers
Dan

[everything]

dan thanks a lot. I think you just described the problem I have at this point. I do really enjoy doing some judo. that can lead to "muscling" instead of the method you describe. the deeper work is superficially very, very boring, though. I am not ready to add punching and kicking to make it fun, though. this really is "eating bitter" and at times i'm just too bored to eat it. any tips to deal with that appreciated. today i'll try some solo work on the example you mentioned - up and out on right, down and in on left.