Rehashing an old topic; re: Taiji

[everything]

applications taught as drills

looking back at your question, if you reversed the usual training sequence from learn some form before other stuff to: learn an application as a partner drill, then do that as solo drill, what do you have? you have part of a form. I think it's impossible at that point to separate that particular application in your mind from that particular solo move... until you learn that the solo move can be other stuff. but it's still a "form", a "pattern", a "frame" or what have you. if you do it as a cooperative two person drill, it's 'practicing an application' and solo it's 'form'.

if you take a practice swing without hitting the golf ball, it's "form". then when you hit it it's "application". you could theoretically just hit golf balls 100% of your practice and playing time, but it seems helpful to practice the form with no ball or even without a club. I think there are no professional or hobbyist golfers who have never done the "form" of the golf swing. you could do it; it just seems odd and unlikely you would do it...

[JusticeZero]

To me, a form is a static series of techniques to be practiced in that sequence. A drill that was made up while the teacher was on the way to the studio that consists of a sequence of three movements which will not be repeated after that class save by coincidence is not a form. It is less than clear what exactly is gained by connecting say, 108 movements in tone specific order and memorizing it to repeat ad nauseum.

[Steve James]

I think the question is "Can someone learn TCC without doing a/the form?" Imo, as Dmitri suggested, that'd be defying the traditional TCC curriculum and learning sequence. But, I don't necessarily agree that it would mean that the student wasn't learning TCC (even though the program might be ineffective). The problem is that the form is usually the way a student learns the fundamentals that form the basis and basics of the more advanced training. It'd be like teaching moving push hands before stationary push hands. It's possible, but usually standing comes before walking.

Otoh, if we're talking about TCC "principles" (or I'd say the principles used in TCC), then there's no reason they can't be "taught" if not used to their best effect. TCC principles, imo, aren't limited to TCC; they're just a certain set of things organized in relatively specific ways. That's like the question "Does TCC have groundfighting?" Well, ... generally not, but that doesn't mean that there aren't principles from standup or throwing (TCC) that could be applied.

Another question might be "Can TCC incorporate BJJ principles?" ... without practicing on the mat. Or are some principles universal?

[Juan]

Re: Universal principles

Funny you bring that up. Last time I was working in the clinch I had a smile from ear to ear and one of my trainers couldn't figure it out. I was smiling because the entire time I was working the clinch he kept yelling at me to relax. It just reminded me of when I started Taiji. Also, when I started working with our boxing coach the thing he kept telling me was to relax while punching. Again, relaxation seems to be such an universal principal in the fighting arts. I haven't done much BJJ besides occasionally playing around or getting some informal coaching from guys in my gym. But it's the same thing, the movements must be relaxed and the hip is instrumental. Very cool deal.

[kreese]

I think form teaches an unbroken intent through several "moves" or "changes", like an unbroken thread. It is not quite the same as learning something more powpowpow. That's what I think, at least.

[Walk the Torque]

I think form teaches an unbroken intent through several "moves" or "changes", like an unbroken thread. It is not quite the same as learning something more powpowpow. That's what I think, at least.

I think your right. Its not just intent though its unbroken jin also.

[kreese]

Is unbroken jin like recycling energy in the body so that one movement easily flows in to the next?

[Walk the Torque]

Well the way I do it is to put power into the movements where the hands return towards the body as well as away. Also the transitions between postures is a good way in. So yes, you can say it is recycling energy. This kind of practice affords a continuous power generation so you don't get caught between explosive blasts.

[johnwang]

Would bagua still be bagua if you take away circle walking?

yes.

One famous CMA novel that was published in the 1920, the author was a very knowledgeable CMA expert. In his book, he wrote, "The Bagua master A did circle walking and his opponent B was afraid that A might get behind him, B was forced to turn with A. After several turns, since B was not used to the turning, he got dizzy and A took that opportunity to move in and attack B."

It seems that the "circle walking" was truly used as an unique entering strategy in Bagua system after all.

[Andy_S]

Funnily enough, I have either heard or read that Bagua circling can make your opponent dizzy - perhaps this novel was the source of this odd concept?

Nigel Sutton/Katami notes in one of his books that one of the very best Malaysia Taiji fighters had long ago forgotten the form, but was very good at two man drills and single techniques. I am not sure if he learned any other MA, but IIRC, all he had done was Taiji.

[johnwang]

Funnily enough, I have either heard or read that Bagua circling can make your opponent dizzy - perhaps this novel was the source of this odd concept?

This is the book.



and this is the text:



Translation - The founder of the Bagua system used "moving" to against "not moving" ... The whole style was built on top of "running" ... You can run 300 to 500 circles and not get dizzy ...But if your opponent is not used to do this then he will get dizzy...

[Steve James]

Well, it's just mho and it seems obvious but, bagua circling walking has a lot do with how bagua that uses circle walking works as a martial art. It's not just a practice technique; it's a strategy and a tactic. I don't know if it will make an opponent dizzy; but, it does create a different set of problems to deal with.

[Daniel]

The oldest versions of Taiji I have seen are single movement focused, primarily peng, lu, ji, an, first in physical movements, then just as energetics in the movements, and later expanded into the other four. These single movements are later strung together in "forms" for several different reasons, mnemonics being a minor one.

Master Chen that Alex Kozma recently brought to the UK teaches this way too.

Bagua is designed to cause gaps in the mind of the opponent. "Running around to make them dizzy" might work, but in real life fighting, the gaps will be of more importance, as will the ability to move without succumbing to inertia.

And how one could believe in Bagua to exist without circle walking is truly beyond me. I´m probably just having a dumb 15 years of practice of the style, but to me, the idea is manifestly impossible. Just doing lines or free standing palm changes will give you an IMA, but all the depth, tactics and energy work from the core curriculum of circle walking will be lost.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[BruceP]

Does one need to learn the form to get the principles of Taiji such as using the whole body for power?

No

Aren't there other excercises in the system such as the Chan Ssu Chin that can teach this as well?

Yes. Nine Temple Exercises and other qigongs contain the same 'information' but provide a chaining of movement that is more applicable to fighting than anything I've ever seen anyone use from their tjq form.

Can it not be taught in drills and/or sparring?

Not drills, but the movement patterns definitely manifest under pressure. It's a more efficient way to train the principles and methods for immediate utility.

For self defense the postures have some very clear applications, can those applications be taught as drills?

Drills are ok sometimes. Natural is always better.

[johnwang]

Drills are ok sometimes. Natural is always better.

Natural is the same as solo drills without partner. The natural of "push up" is the solo drill without sex partner.